taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Apr 26, 2006 17:58:31 GMT -5
Okay, since we're playing with the alternative spellbooks idea, let's post spellbooks in this thread.
We'll have four gestures to start with in the new variant; what they are doesn't really matter, but for now I'll go with A, T, C and G as representations in honour of DNA. Double T will be the surrender gesture.
Please post spellbooks below, comprising about a dozen spells made up of the four gestures. Themes are eagerly awaited.
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Post by Slartucker on Apr 26, 2006 18:34:38 GMT -5
C is no good -- it's used in the regular game. Also, I think we need to relate gestures to letters for flavor -- can you picture finger of death not ending by pointing your digit? I'll suggest the following:
B - ball up fist H - hug chest with arm (this makes a good candidate for a two-handed gesture if you need one -- try it) O - open fist/fingers/palm (should be used for surrender, and flavor as defensive/abjurative, I suppose) R - raise arm
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Post by vilhazarog on Apr 26, 2006 19:21:20 GMT -5
Originally when I was trying to implement Spellbinder I replaced D with G for grip because I thought "digit" was kinda lame. I put it back after playing Warlocks for a long time though, was too annoying to go back and forth between D and G.
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Apr 26, 2006 20:30:07 GMT -5
Okay, using the Slarty gesture set:
I had a somewhat similar idea to Yaron, but subtly different; I present the Illusionist.
RO: Sleight Of Hand: Enchantment. If cast on a wizard, next turn that wizard chooses one of his hands and submits a third gesture which will be shown to other wizards in place of the gesture actually made on that hand. This spell has no effect on monsters.
RHRB: Faceswap: Enchantment. The caster's features take on an illusionary resemblance to those of the target wizard, and vice versa. The result is that all monsters currently serving the caster start serving the target wizard, and the monsters serving the target wizard instead serve the caster. (Any "counter" spells should be directed at the caster).
RBB: Summon Shadow: Summoning. Summons a 1-health monster who attacks for 1 hit point. (unless you really want the hassle of implementing "special" monsters...)
OO: Lethargy: Disruption. If cast on a wizard, next turn that wizard cannot stab. If cast on a monster, the monster cannot attack that turn. This disruption cancels with other disruptions.
OBB: Terror: Disruption. If cast on a wizard, next turn that wizard may make only the gestures A or T on either hand. If cast on a monster, the monster does not attack this turn.
ORH: Mirror Image: Protection. If cast on a wizard or monster, the wizard or monster takes no damage from the next three direct damage spells and monster attacks directed at him; if several attacks are directed at the wizard or monster on the turn all the Mirror Images are destroyed, the most damaging are dealt with first. This spell does not block damaging enchantments and disruptions.
OHB: Fade: Enchantment. If cast on a wizard, next turn that wizard is hidden from view; his gestures cannot be seen and monsters cannot target him. If cast on a monster, all other spells aimed at the monster that turn fail.
BOH: Searing Light: Damage. This spell inflicts one damage on all entities present but for the caster.
BRRH: Psychosomnia: Enchantment. While this inflicts three damage, it counts as an enchantment spell and not a direct damage spell, and can be cancelled by spells which target enchantments.
BBOr: Phantasmal Transfer: Enchantment. All enchantments and disruptions (including permanent enchantments!) that will be present on the casting wizard the turn after this spell is cast are transferred to the target of the wizard's choice. If, however, the spell is countered or blocked in some way, the transfer does not take place and the casting wizard remains under the influence of the disruptions and enchantments. (Any "counter" spells should be directed at the caster).
HRR: Hypnosis: Disruption. If cast on a wizard, next turn that wizard may only choose from the gestures his opponent used on the preceding round. If cast on a monster, the monster attacks the target of the caster's choice that round.
HRObb: Maze Of Mirrors. Permanent Enchantment. If cast on a wizard, the wizard sees his opponent's spellflow as an exact mirror of his own from the next turn onwards, and all spells he casts are targetted at himself. If cast on a monster, the monster dies from magical overload without attacking.
Hope it provides people with some food for thought/inspiration.
Taliesin
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Post by vilhazarog on Apr 26, 2006 21:03:04 GMT -5
Holy crap, you came up with all that in a day?? Just a quick note on difficulty of implementation: In general the things that are the biggest pain in the ass are those that require a new form of input from the user, for example, your Sleight of Hand spell. This means you can't just plug in a new spell, you must also change the user interface. Really the effects ripple through the whole code as you pass that new information along. Also those that require special ordering within a round, such as Mirror Image, can be problematic sometimes (hence the oddity of not being able to counter a charm monster cast on a monster summoned in the same round in the Warlocks implementation). Special monsters aren't really that tough, depending. Monsters that require a new command other than attack X falls under the first point, but for instance, monsters that never attack, do spell effects, have special enchantments, or take different actions based on the current situation... not that tough really. At this stage though, I say, if you have a cool idea, just blurt it out, don't worry about how hard it is to code.
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Post by Slartucker on Apr 26, 2006 21:57:15 GMT -5
I like Sleight of Hand.
So, if Faceswap is disenchanted somehow, monsters revert to their original owner? What happens if some class has a regular Charm Monster? Say: - Slarty summons a dragon (Dragon follows Slarty's face, dragon follows Slarty) - Taliesin casts Faceswap (Dragon follows Slarty's face, dragon follows Taliesin) - Slarty casts Charm Monster (Dragon follows Taliesin's face, dragon follows Slarty) - Slarty casts Remove Enchantment on Taliesin (Dragon follows Taliesin's face, dragon follows Taliesin)
So I guess it just requires two new pieces of info: what face a monster is following, and who has what face.
Were you assuming universal counterspells, or not?
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Apr 27, 2006 6:38:38 GMT -5
Holy crap, you came up with all that in a day?? Just a quick note on difficulty of implementation: In general the things that are the biggest pain in the ass are those that require a new form of input from the user, for example, your Sleight of Hand spell. But Sleight Of Hand doesn't require a new form of input for the user; it requires exactly the same input as a Charm Person spell cast on yourself would have. The only difference is that the gesture input is the gesture shown to others, and differs from the actual gestures (however, if you can replace gestures in Invis or Blindness with ?, then you ought to be able to replace gestures with gestures that actually exist; you'll need to store more information though). This means you can't just plug in a new spell, you must also change the user interface. Really the effects ripple through the whole code as you pass that new information along. Also those that require special ordering within a round, such as Mirror Image, can be problematic sometimes (hence the oddity of not being able to counter a charm monster cast on a monster summoned in the same round in the Warlocks implementation). Well, hopefully it's made a little easier by Mirror Image only affecting damage spells and monster attacks. You could prioritise it further and have damage spells (if processed first) take priority over monster attacks. Mirror Image should also be destroyed by all global attacks (e.g. storms) including Searing Light (which functions as a global attack with protection for the caster). Special monsters aren't really that tough, depending. Monsters that require a new command other than attack X falls under the first point, but for instance, monsters that never attack, do spell effects, have special enchantments, or take different actions based on the current situation... not that tough really. Okay, I might rejig Summon Shadow at some point. Actually, you don't even need that much info for two-player. You only need to know that if Faceswap is toggled, all monsters on one side go to the other, and vice versa. So if Faceswap is on, everyone switches sides; and if it's off, which any remove enchantment or a second faceswap spell can achieve, everyone switches back. The fun gets to be when you're implementing it for melee. Even then, you always know what face a monster is following based on who currently has it and what face they have, so the only extra information you need is who has whose face. However, the big problem with this is that it becomes a pain in the ass to keep track of multiple face-swaps between several wizard (does the victim of a face-swap get an effect they can dispel?) So while it's workable in two-player, it's probably not in melee. They make no difference here, so I had no assumptions. Faceswap is probably too much of a pain in the ass to implement for melee, and Illusionists already have a spell to deal with monsters in Hypnosis, and a helpful monster-clearer in Searing Light. However, since they have no Shield, and must needs incapacitate one monster at a time with Lethargy, I thought it would have been useful to give them something a bit more potent against monsters... Hmm, time to rejig Summon Shadow. SPELL UPDATES:RBB: Summon Shadow: Summoning. Shadows have just 1 health, but are immune from physical damage. They do not attack, but opponents' monsters are forced to target the Shadow until a spell destroys it. OBB: Terror: Disruption. If cast on a wizard, next turn that wizard may make only the gestures O or H on either hand. If cast on a monster, the monster does not attack this turn. (was A and T from the old gesture set) Faceswap replacement: RHRH: Hidden Blade: Damage. This spell inflicts two physical damage (the same as monster attacks). (I'd like opinions on the school so far. Particularly the loss of Shield for Lethargy, which acts as a useful disruption counter, at the cost of being a relatively ineffective way of stopping monsters. An Illusionist needs his Shadows to keep from being pounded.) I wouldn't mind playing an email game of this and seeing how Illusionist vs Illusionist turns out. Also, Yaron, I've got loads of ideas for the Enchanter (more meta-magic based) if you'd like me to write one up... Taliesin
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yaron
Ronin Warlock
Master of the Full Hand
Posts: 12
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Post by yaron on Apr 27, 2006 8:28:11 GMT -5
Here are some thoughts about Taliesin's Illusionist, and some more general. I'll try to write up a more complete Enchanter this evening - any ideas are welcome (or you could write your own version and we'd mix and match, I'm fine with that).
First, I was trying to find the pattern in your choice of gestures. O is P by common agreement. It looks like you're using B the same way D is used (starts and ends big spells, rarely in the middle), but other similiarities indicate H->D and B->W. And then Terror forces O+H, which doesn't really put an (illusionist) opponent on the defensive at all. I'm raising all these points because establishing some patterns is going to give us more game design options (like spells for forcing defense, spells for preventing defense, etc.).
I like a lot of your ideas, in particular Shadow (the new version), Face Swap, Mirror Image, Phantasmal Transfer.
Some might be too weak: Sleight of Hand, Lethargy, Searing Light. Hidden Blade is so weak, it makes me think I might have missed something (4 gestures to do 2 damage, which can be stopped by a shield).
I'm concerned about stabs. 2 gestures to stop one stab is bad enough, but another big problem (compared to shield) is that it works for the following turn: either the opponent stabs, knowing they hit, or they don't stab at all - no risk.
This got me thinking: we should have a benchmark Warlock to measure classes against - a regular Warlock scaled down to the 12 spell, 4 gesture model.
The spell book should include:
2 damage spells (one for 2 damage, one for 5) 2 standard disruptions (which are most useful?) 1 killer spell (FoD, probably, but maybe poison/disease type) 3 defensive spells (shield and counter spell + remove/dispel type) 2 monster spells (Ogre + charm?) 2 meta game spells (invis + time stop)
This leaves out protection, which could make monsters to powerful. Maybe replace one meta with protection.
Again, I'll try to make a complete write-up in the evening, if no one beats me to it.
I think a big problem we're facing is that the usefulness of defensive spells is highly dependent on the match-up. Shield/Protection could be absolutely vital against a big summoner, but completely useless against the Illusionist. The same goes for spells that deal with enchnantments.
One possible solution (which might have already been suggested) is to have some basic defenses shared by all spell books: shield, protection, remove enchantment, counterspell.
Yaron
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Apr 27, 2006 10:02:22 GMT -5
First, I was trying to find the pattern in your choice of gestures. O is P by common agreement. It looks like you're using B the same way D is used (starts and ends big spells, rarely in the middle), but other similiarities indicate H->D and B->W. And then Terror forces O+H, which doesn't really put an (illusionist) opponent on the defensive at all. I'm raising all these points because establishing some patterns is going to give us more game design options (like spells for forcing defense, spells for preventing defense, etc.). Terror forcing O+H was mainly thematic; though you could probably make a case for any of the gestures in case of fear (arms raised in supplication, balled fists as the fight-or-flee kicks in). I did think of O as something like a P, and H as something like an F. Since I only had four gestures to work with, however, I couldn't pin things down as tightly as that and spells had to take whatever was necessary to prevent spell chaining being too easy... Since I had to represent all the types of spells in my dozen, I couldn't really differentiate in the same ways. While it might have been an idea to switch things round so O was at the start of more of the longer spells were O Shield, so it's harder to leave the defensive and attack, the Illusionist does not have a shield spell and will need all the help he can get to counterattack out of a Lethargy chain. I like a lot of your ideas, in particular Shadow (the new version), Face Swap, Mirror Image, Phantasmal Transfer. Some might be too weak: Sleight of Hand, Lethargy, Searing Light. Hidden Blade is so weak, it makes me think I might have missed something (4 gestures to do 2 damage, which can be stopped by a shield). Sleight of Hand is only two gestures, which I think justifies its weak misdirection. Consider that two turns afterwards you will have to possibly defend against Terror, Mirror Image and Fade all at once from just that hand, without even considering whatever was on the other hand. If you don't manage to disrupt them on the Sleighted turn, you've got to deal with plenty of spell possibilities, and even if you do, because OO is a counter-disruption, they can play ROO on themselves and Sleight the other hand to force you onto the back foot. Lethargy is on the weak side against direct damage, but it's powerful against disruptions. Note that OO sets up a Lethargy chain, so you're stopping a monster or disruption every turn with it. This would also be true of O or HH, my suggested alternative gestures, but it would make them even more powerful against disruptions. (Admittedly, H has been set up to flow badly, so it's not so easy to switch from a disruption-defeating H chain into attack). Searing Light was partially envisaged as a response to the Illusionist's monster weakness; all monsters present will also take one damage, after all. While unfortunately this will also kill Shadows and Mirror Images, it should work fine and dandy against goblin-equivalents; it's a bit of an earlier solution to the multiple summon situation before I came up with the new Shadows. I want to play with it a little before I discard it. What you're missing with Hidden Blade is that its gesture chain is RHRH; this means that RHRHRHRH actually casts three times to deliver six damage. You essentially have a damage chain, and as an Illusionist can make himself effectively undisruptable with Lethargy, I thought that this was probably too potent to make Hidden Blade do magic damage, particularly as it's very easy to continue into Hypnosis. Maybe not. I'm concerned about not overpowering the Illusionist at first, because it's easier to power up later than to nerf things back down (at least, people complain less about their favourite class being powered up than weakened). I'm concerned about stabs. 2 gestures to stop one stab is bad enough, but another big problem (compared to shield) is that it works for the following turn: either the opponent stabs, knowing they hit, or they don't stab at all - no risk. Well, Mirror Image should be effective against stabs as well, though I didn't explicitly say that. You're right that the Illusionist is maybe weaker against stabs than it should be. Perhaps Shadows should attract all physical damage, including stabs, too? ("You stab what you think is Yaron, but he dissolves into shadows and drifts away"). The mechanic then becomes one where the Illusionist needs to keep his shadows alive to be protected from physical damage, whereupon his Mirror Images are active in diverting damage spells and as long as he has an O handy, he can squelch incoming disruptions. Somewhere in all there he needs to find time to counterattack, too. This got me thinking: we should have a benchmark Warlock to measure classes against - a regular Warlock scaled down to the 12 spell, 4 gesture model. ... This leaves out protection, which could make monsters to powerful. Maybe replace one meta with protection. A benchmark warlock's an excellent idea. And yes, I'd make protection one of the meta spells - the meta spells tend to be longer so it makes sense to add them on later. I think a big problem we're facing is that the usefulness of defensive spells is highly dependent on the match-up. Shield/Protection could be absolutely vital against a big summoner, but completely useless against the Illusionist. The same goes for spells that deal with enchnantments. Well, sort of. If Hidden Blade is doing physical damage, then you'd need a Shield or Protection spell to stop it. (If not, then you'd only need them in case of stabs). Removing enchantments is IMHO vital to combat the Illusionist, who will attack with Psychosomnia, Phantasmal Transfer and Maze Of Mirrors. If you've got a PDWP that kills monsters, you can even use it to take down the Shadows. And heck, even the Mirror Image defence is vulnerable to being disenchanted. PDWP would be one of your most potent weapons... (Incidentally, I'm not sure if PDWP would stop Psychosomnia or not; it doesn't stop Antispell, and it's the same principle, that it can't remove an instant effect). One possible solution (which might have already been suggested) is to have some basic defenses shared by all spell books: shield, protection, remove enchantment, counterspell. Yaron Well, I think that does reduce your options. The Illusionist has solutions to the same issues that those spells cover; different solutions, and I think they can be made viable solutions. I'd like to explore the options given by departing from the Warlocks spell template. Damage is covered by Shadows and Mirror Images, disruptions by Lethargy, enchantments by Phantasmal Transfer. At present the Illusionist doesn't have a terribly good counter to something like Invisibility, but when we get up to sixteen or twenty spells, I expect there will be a useful counter with interesting side-effects; I wouldn't expect Invisibility to necessarily be one of the first ones implemented anyway. Hmm. Phantasmal Transfer could take on the "swap" role, and all enchantments are swapped instead of transferred. That would let the Illusionist "steal" his opponent's Invisibility. I think that makes for a potentially interesting mechanic. Confirmed changes: Phantasmal Transfer swaps enchantments over, it's a two-way transfer. Shadows deflect all physical damage while present. Possible changes: Make Lethargy easier to cast? Make Hidden Blade do non-physical damage? Interesting notes about Illusionist vs Illusionist: Maze Of Mirrors is pretty much fatal for Illusionists, since the Illusionist can't remove it; Phantasmal Transfer only works if he can see the other wizard. Illusionists cannot block Psychosomnia (it's not a damage spell, Mirror Image won't touch it), only disrupt it before it's cast. If Hidden Blade does physical damage, and Shadows block all physical damage, does that mean they block Hidden Blade? Taliesin
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Post by Slartucker on Apr 27, 2006 11:05:39 GMT -5
In general, Taliesin, I think you are a little hyperfocused on monsters. Despite the so-called "Illusionist's monster weakness" an awfully large number of his spells do things to monsters.
I am still not clear on how the Illusionist wins a match. His attacks are all attrition based, except Maze of Mirrors... his opponent disruptions are somewhat limited so without counters, he will fall to any opponent who can go on the offensive faster.
Faceswap: While the idea is neat, I think this is too complicated to be worthwhile.
Mirror Image and Summon Shadow: I think these may be too powerful now. Mirror Image confuses me. Why the HECK would it work on damage spells but not disruptions? It just doesn't make any sense. Regardless, I think it's too powerful.
Fade: This seems really weak to me, particularly with a limited spellbook where the opportunities to feign one spell as another are limited. I suppose it can protect the casting of a Maze of Mirrors -- and that is very dangerous if counterspells are not around.
Hidden Blade: This is really, really, really bad. This is like stabbing for 2 damage every other turn. That makes it easier to shield against, therefore this spell is WORSE than a >>>>>>> chain.
Psychosomnia: I had assumed this was removable. If it's not it SHOULD NOT BE an enchantment. The fact that PDWP will not stop SPFP is one of my big pet peeves about RB's rules. Either it stops it, or SPFP is not an enchantment. There ARE instant effects that PDWP removes (effects that cannot be made permanent) -- Time Stop, Charm Monster (I think, did we ever test charm Taliesin? -- regardless, PDWP should remove it the turn it is cast, even if RBW doesn't do it that way).
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Apr 27, 2006 11:41:34 GMT -5
In general, Taliesin, I think you are a little hyperfocused on monsters. Despite the so-called "Illusionist's monster weakness" an awfully large number of his spells do things to monsters. The reason that this is so is because he was weak against monsters, and I wanted him also to be balanced against a summoner. Monsters win matches in Warlocks. People too easily forget this. And almost all Warlocks spells do things to monsters, with only a handful of exceptions; you need to detail for each spell what it will do to a monster. I am still not clear on how the Illusionist wins a match. His attacks are all attrition based, except Maze of Mirrors... his opponent disruptions are somewhat limited so without counters, he will fall to any opponent who can go on the offensive faster. With a dozen spells, it's not possible to have four of them be huge gamewinning chains like Permanency, Poison, Disease, and FoD. Consider the numbers here. Winning matches therefore relies on the single major spell of the dozen, plus attrition from damage spells and monsters (but an illusionist isn't a proper summoner). What do you expect? Also, you're letting the counterspell mechanic cloud your judgement here a little, IMO. He does have counterspells, very effective counterspells, it's just that they function differently. You're thinking in terms of one spell doing everything; instead, the Illusionist has a number of spells with side-effects, each of which provides a piece of the counterspell equation. What does "going on the offensive faster" constitute to you? Summoning? You'll need to break past the Illusionist's Shadows. Disruption? But Lethargy takes just two gestures to preserve the Illusionist's spellflow. Damage spells? Mirror Image takes three gestures to deal with that. Yes, the Illusionist is forced to tailor his spellflow more to his opponent's threats, but in compensation, Shadow and Mirror Image last until they're removed; once the protections are set up, they have to be broken down before an Illusionist's opponent can make progress. Agreed. Complexity of implementation is why I backed it out in favour of Hidden Blade. One effect is psychic, the other physical. Disruptions invoke emotions, not physical changes. Damage spells are the other way around. No, these spells are not too powerful; you're just seeing the interaction in terms of standard Warlocks. The illusionist doesn't have a Shield spell, nor a Protection spell, nor a Counterspell. These spells take the place of those spells. Both of them act rather like Protection, with differences. Summon Shadow is like a Permanent Protection which can be removed by any magical damage spell as well as a Remove Enchantment. It does nothing to destroy the monsters attacking it, so as soon as all the Shadows are gone, the floodgates are opened. It might need to be bumped up to four gestures; but again, maybe not, given that it only takes a three-gesture spell to destroy it. (I don't think Mirror Image should be castable on Shadows). Mirror Image is weaker than Protection against physical damage, in that it's easy to weigh in with more than three attacks in three turns, particularly if you have a monster or two. Without Summon Shadow, it would be well-nigh useless against a group of monsters. It's vulnerable to global damage attacks. Too powerful? Not a bit of it. How do you reconcile your initial claim that the illusionist is helpless against an offensive opponent with the claim that his defensive spells are overpowered? Actually, I just played a game against myself to see what I could work out; and Fade is actually pretty powerful. Why? Because it also functions as a (four-gesture) counterspell; you can't hit what you can't see. I think it balances pretty well. No. Hidden Blade dummies into Hypnosis and Maze Of Mirrors really readily. It's a heck of a lot better than a stab chain. However, it might be an idea to make it magical damage; but I think play-testing is probably necessary before you do that (otherwise, it might be overpowered). Okay. That's fair enough, then; PDWP will also block it. I was canvassing for people's views on this. And do you want to play a game or two over email so we can get a better picture of how things actually work, and what alterations need made? Taliesin
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Post by Slartucker on Apr 27, 2006 13:00:41 GMT -5
Monsters win matches in Warlocks. People too easily forget this. And almost all Warlocks spells do things to monsters, with only a handful of exceptions; you need to detail for each spell what it will do to a monster. How do you reconcile this with your assertion that the Illusionist can win matches despite having no monsters capable of attacking whatsoever? In warlocks, games are most often won through a combination of monsters, direct damage, and the threat of big spells like perm or fod. All the Illusionist has is ONE real direct damage spell (the 1 pt Pyroclasm, while fun and useful, doesn't count for much here) plus a bizarre hidden stab. I'm skeptical is all. Can you use Hidden Blade if you are under the effects of Lethargy? What would you think about making Hidden Blade 1 damage, but magical? Disruptions don't necessarily evoke "emotions" (I assume you mean cognitive changes). Regular warlocks has paralysis. Similarly, physical attacks don't necessarily involve a targeted missile: what about Cause Wounds spells? Also, it's not just disruptions that ignore Mirror Images, it's all enchantments. But Poison has a physical effect, doesn't it? The problem is that Mirror Image is overpowered against direct damage. If we have a class that is direct damage oriented, and I'm sure we will, Mirror Image pretty much guarantees that the Illusionist will win every fight. I'm not sure how to fix that, but I'm quite sure that with limited spellbooks, we want direct damage to be viable. You yourself like to say that summoning borders on being overpowered in the regular game. Well, let's make sure it's not the only viable strategy here. Sure.
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yaron
Ronin Warlock
Master of the Full Hand
Posts: 12
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Post by yaron on Apr 27, 2006 15:07:42 GMT -5
WARLOCK BBO | Protection | BOO | Counterspell | BRO | Cause Light Wounds | HBBHH | Lightning Bolt | HOO | Amnesia | HRRB | Summon Ogre | OBOBRRRH | Finger of Death | ORHH | Charm Monster | O | Shield | RHB | Charm Person* | ROBO | Remove Enchantment | RRB | Summon Goblin |
I think it has most of the basic tools of the original. *I couldn't resist the temptation to throw in my Charm Person variant (can't charm nulls/stabs, but choose spell and target for charmed hand). It was deemed too weak at 4 gestures, so I figured we should try it at 3. If you don't like the idea, use regular Charm Person with ORHB. Send me mail, I'll be glad to play this against the illusionist, itself, or anything else. Some other notes: Taliesin: I completely missed the fact that lethargy and hidden blade can chain. Now I'm not concerned about weakness, but rather about para-like vortices... But we'll be wiser after some testing. Slartucker: part of your concern about the weakness of Fade is due to the fact that our spell-space is still sparse compared to Warlocks. This makes bluffing with Fade (and shadowcasting in general) less of an option. This should improve with added spells, but will skew the results of what we test in the meantime... [At ~30 viable spells (excluding those that start with clap), Warlocks offers an average of 6 spells per (non-clap) opening gesture (we have 3), and 1.2 spells per two-gesture chain (we have 0.75).] Yaron
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Apr 28, 2006 7:48:11 GMT -5
How do you reconcile this with your assertion that the Illusionist can win matches despite having no monsters capable of attacking whatsoever? If you play a game of Warlocks in which neither party can summon, someone would still win the games. The Illusionist may not have monsters to help his cause, but he has spells to effectively neutralise the monsters helping the other side. In warlocks, games are most often won through a combination of monsters, direct damage, and the threat of big spells like perm or fod. All the Illusionist has is ONE real direct damage spell (the 1 pt Pyroclasm, while fun and useful, doesn't count for much here) plus a bizarre hidden stab. I'm skeptical is all. Mmm. The more I look at this, the more convinced I am that the Illusionist should be relying on big spells to finish his games, and have enough big spells that he can mix up the threats. Monsters aren't in the Illusionist style at all, and damage isn't the focus. (Do remember however that the benchmark warlock only has two damage spells when cut down to twelve). Can you use Hidden Blade if you are under the effects of Lethargy? What would you think about making Hidden Blade 1 damage, but magical? To be honest, I'm falling out of love with Hidden Blade. While a chaining damage spell seemed cutesy, I'm not really fond of chaining spells, and having two in the build seems a little over the top. I'll think up a replacement. And the answer would be yes, Lethargy only prevents the stab gesture, not the infliction of physical damage by magical means (e.g. summoning monsters). Disruptions don't necessarily evoke "emotions" (I assume you mean cognitive changes). Regular warlocks has paralysis. Similarly, physical attacks don't necessarily involve a targeted missile: what about Cause Wounds spells? Also, it's not just disruptions that ignore Mirror Images, it's all enchantments. But Poison has a physical effect, doesn't it? Okay, okay. Maybe it should just stop the next three spells or physical attacks period. (On a round where two spells are incoming and there's a monster attacking, it functions exactly like a Counterspell; unlike a Counterspell however, you can't cast it on an enemy warlock to block helpful spells.) Maybe it should be increased to four gestures, maybe it should be reduced to two images, but I think it's balanceable. The problem is that Mirror Image is overpowered against direct damage. If we have a class that is direct damage oriented, and I'm sure we will, Mirror Image pretty much guarantees that the Illusionist will win every fight. Not really. Mirror Image doesn't protect from global damage. If you fire off a storm or equivalent, the images vanish. Since we don't have claps, the direct damage class should be able to segue from its global damage spell into specific damage quickly. I'm not sure how to fix that, but I'm quite sure that with limited spellbooks, we want direct damage to be viable. You yourself like to say that summoning borders on being overpowered in the regular game. Well, let's make sure it's not the only viable strategy here. I don't recall saying that it's overpowered. Exceedingly useful, yes, but you need skill to get the best out of summoning; paralysis is what I'd consider overpowered... Now, onto another issue. Maze Of Mirrors is cutesy, but it's effectively Permanent Blindness. Not bad. But against a class with Remove Enchantment, it's not going to stay on long. I'm not entirely sure how to fix this. Taliesin
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Apr 28, 2006 8:17:00 GMT -5
Illusionist, version 2:
(Various spell strings have been switched round to balance the gestures more fully).
RO: Sleight Of Hand: Enchantment. If cast on a wizard, next turn that wizard chooses one of his hands and submits a third gesture which will be shown to other wizards in place of the gesture actually made on that hand. This spell has no effect on monsters.
RBB: Summon Shadow: Summoning. Summons a 1-health monster who attacks for 1 hit point. (unless you really want the hassle of implementing "special" monsters...)
RHB: Hypnosis: Disruption. If cast on a wizard, next turn that wizard may only choose from the gestures his opponent used on the preceding round. If cast on a monster, the monster attacks the target of the caster's choice that round. (Too many useful O spells, R spells were weaker.)
OBB: Terror: Disruption. If cast on a wizard, next turn that wizard may make only the gestures A or T on either hand. If cast on a monster, the monster does not attack this turn.
OHB: Fade: Enchantment. If cast on a wizard, next turn that wizard is hidden from view; his gestures cannot be seen and monsters cannot target him. If cast on a monster, all other spells aimed at the monster that turn fail.
BOH: Searing Light: Damage. This spell inflicts one damage on all entities present but for the caster.
BRRH: Psychosomnia: Enchantment. While this inflicts three damage, it counts as an enchantment spell and not a direct damage spell, and can be cancelled by spells which target enchantments.
BRBBH: Despair: Disruption. If cast on a wizard, the wizard must input O on both hands next turn (surrendering the game). If cast on a monster, the monster does not attack, and pines away and dies over the course of the turn. (Okay. This probably seems more powerful than it is. It's a five-gesture spell, and it cancels with any disruption. Your options for stopping it are legion; five spells from the benchmark set, five from the Illusionist set. However, I expect this to be the spell that lets an Illusionist win against the benchmark wizard; Maze Of Mirrors is too easily removable, and it can't quite compete on damage). (This is the replacement for Hidden Blade, which was a replacement for Faceswap).
BBOr: Phantasmal Transfer: Enchantment. All enchantments and disruptions (including permanent enchantments!) that will be present on the casting wizard the turn after this spell is cast are transferred to the target of the wizard's choice. If, however, the spell is countered or blocked in some way, the transfer does not take place and the casting wizard remains under the influence of the disruptions and enchantments. (Any "counter" spells should be directed at the caster).
HH: Lethargy: Disruption. If cast on a wizard, next turn that wizard cannot stab. If cast on a monster, the monster cannot attack that turn. This disruption cancels with other disruptions. (Strengthened slightly, I think, allowing more options on the other hand).
HOOR: Mirror Image: Protection. If cast on a wizard or monster, the wizard or monster is immune to the next three spells cast on him by other wizards or physical attacks made against him; if several attacks are directed at the wizard or monster on the turn all the Mirror Images are destroyed, they're dealt with in process order (i.e. if disruptions are handled before damage spells, they'll use up the image first). (Increased to four gestures to cast, since it lasts for three spells of any stripe).
HRObb: Maze Of Mirrors. Permanent Enchantment. If cast on a wizard, the wizard sees his opponent's spellflow as an exact mirror of his own from the next turn onwards, and all spells he casts are targetted at himself. If cast on a monster, the monster dies from magical overload without attacking.
Thoughts?
Taliesin
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