Damage control?

[bayushi]

(nawglan: It might be best to wait on reading this until after, but it's not like I have a chance to win this game anyways, so feel free if you wish)

In an (ongoing) game with nawglan, I followed him into invis (the turn after his resolved) and made a huge mistake.  Now that it's too late to fix at least that mistake (and I'm almost sure the game is lost), and we both know each others' invis turns anyways, I'd like to ask what I should have done.
My mistake, when I was looking over the invis weaves on the refuge proper, was that I forgot to indent "my" weave one space, so I went "ooh, TaliDelay will save me here" when TaliDelay, I believe, is actually awful here.

Anyways, two questions - in each, I'd like to know what I should have done had I realized my mistake at that point.
Note: Nawglan shielded on turn 7, but not on turn 6.

a)

nawglan(3) Health:14 - Invisibility(1)
Turn:01234567
LH:  BDPPWS??
RH:  BPSDWS??

Bayushi(0) Health:15 - Invisibility(2)
Turn:01234567
LH:  BSWPPWSP
RH:  BPSDDWSS

My analysis:
I think (and had assumed even in the real game, though I'd failed horribly at the analysis as discussed above) he's going for the "standard" invis delay weave discussed in the refuge proper.
I _can_ absolutely just submit F/x on 8, anti-spell him on 9.  But he finishes his antispell on 9, and presumably just banks it for... well, I hear banked antispell is good - plus this stops me from resolving my delay effect lest I submit p on turn 9 - and while I see an argument for "just surrender while you're invis, that's probably better than you'll do in a real game", I don't think I'll learn much that way.  Is there a better line?

b)


nawglan(3) Health:14 - Delay (3)
Turn:012345678
LH:  BDPPWS???
RH:  BPSDWS???

Bayushi(0) Health:15 - Invisibility(1)
Turn:012345678
LH:  BSWPPWSPS
RH:  BPSDDWSSS

My analysis: Well, this is actually the point in the real game at which I noticed how bad this was for me... I think at this point the only line I have is to complete my spells (which is what I did in the real game) and hope that by some miracle he's NOT going for banked antispell/antispell, because I'm not beating that if it is what he's doing (and, well, it was what he was doing in the real game.)  I've looked for a bit but I don't see anything I can possibly do in that case (other than p, again, but I don't think I'll learn much from surrendering.)


Bonus question: What should I have actually gone for as my initial invis weave? (Or should I have even gone into invis?)  Looking over it, just going for antispell means he still gets a banked one; maybe a mind spell would have worked, but I'm not sure what... Even fear only resolves on turn 8, so he wouldn't be feared until 9, and that still lets him bank the antispell, since the P is legal even while feared.  So... well, I don't see anything.

------------

Sorry, I feel I should have done more analysis before posting this, but I don't really know how to.  Hopefully one of you is willing to help me figure out how I should have dealt with all this.


--
Bayushi
Worst Warlock ever?  (Worst active Warlock presently, at least.)

[Dubber]

Short answer, unless nawglan lost his mind, he effectively already has his banked anti-spell. You should be chasing your own banked anti-spell in self-interest. If you are doing anything else, you have made a misatke (unless you are heading for a few counterspell-feints on the way to a ~33/66 FoD attempt which will liekly mean you are still losing the game. Banked anti-spell is survivable, if the player with the banked spell does not cast it at an effective time. The other fun option would be a banked Mirror. Casting the banked mirror against the banked anti-spell is always satisfying.

[bayushi]

nawglan: Would prefer if you didn't read this discussion, actually, if you're still here. (During the game, at least.)

Banked mirror post-charm person (to disrupt his non-banked spell) is my plan in the real game... though I suppose if he uses his banked antispell he can stop me from banking anything that isn't shield.  Then again, if he antispells there, the mirror has done its job - he doesn't have a banked antispell.  How do I go for banked antispell here, though? Doesn't the only line I have to get that end in p (surrender)?

[Dubber]

What? I'm supposed to actually *read* the spellflow? You're on track for a banked PSDF...
which I would either bank or feint...
if I feinted I would have RH:DWSSSPFP for a banked anti-spell?

[bayushi]

It's probably better to bank the PSDF, then? Since he can antispell us before we can finish our RH antispell, unless I'm missing something?

[BioLogIn]

Hey bayushi )

First off, in case my opinion counts for something, you sound like you are really punishing yourself for some misplays, when you totally should not. You have played like less than 10 games so far? Cut yourself some slack, it takes some time to learn this game, to accumulate a number of heuristics, to estimate weaves initiative, and so forth. You seem to do fine with all basics after a short time, so in my opinion you are doing just fine.

As for position after T7, it is very reasonable to assume nawglan goes for delay+anti, which is 'default' D-invis weave. However, double anti might do better than what you have tried:

LH: BDPPWSSPF-
RH: BPSDWSSSP-

LH: BSWPPWSPFP
RH: BPSDDWSSPF

After that, much depends on when nawglan decides to fire his banked anti, but I'm not sure you have better options here.

==

As for your opening, weaving P/D on T3 into nawglan's amnesia was a definite mistake. RH D leads you to PSDD, which does little in this position. Something like SWD/PSW should have fared much better... But overall, SW/PS in weak vs DP/PS; you should opt for SW/PW versus D/P. More on that like can be found here: slarty.proboards.com/thread/716/sw-pw-analysis-wipe-floor

[bayushi]

Fair enough, that does seem better than what I was doing. Something else I was thinking for this line, though it's a much earlier divergence (and though it presumably won't occur much if I'm no longer using SW/PS) is...
BSWPPWSPSFW
BPSDDWSSPFP

Anyways, I'll certainly give the thread a look... I'm not sure I get the appeal of SW/PW over just going SW/Wx from the start, though?  Is there something I'm missing there?

[BioLogIn]

Opening S/W doesn't give you a powerful P (yours captain obvious), which leaves too much freedom to opponent. Versus S/W a player with D/P can just move to DSF/PSx and suddenly you SWD is not 'guaranteed' to hit (DSF self doesn't hurt D/P player as much as DPP self), and some monster junctions await you if something goes wrong, you trade on T3 and they land mala at you. You have to do something weird like SWD/WWW to guarantee WWS counter on T4 under DSF effect, and that gives up ALL of the initiative to the opponent. It is still playable, but giving up initiative on T4 is not very appealing.

[bayushi]

I'm a bit confused; is this just the FoD/haste threat that helps us here, or is there something else useful you can do with PWP but not with WWx? I... well, I suppose FoD threat is better than it looks to me, considering how much trouble I've had defending against it from others, but it does hurt your own spellflow a fair bit, right?

[BioLogIn]

P is a gesture with a lot of Potential. You can move to PSF, to PSD, and to PWP. All of those can be attacked with (a very strong spell) DPP, and all of those are not really bothered by DSF. So it is natural for D/P player to continue with DP/PS after seeing S/P.

W is a very defensive gesture, as it leads to counters and protection (and wounds, but in the opening you rarely need them). DPP doesn't do that much versus Wxx flow, but DSF fares much better, giving D/P player more flexibility (can target self, can lead to goblin or para). So if D/P player sees S/W, he knows that you don't have any offence in RH and that in next few turns he only has to deal with SWD on T3. This allows him to go to DS/PS route, which, as I already mentioned, is likely to put S/W player into defence from the very beginning of the game.

[xade]

May 22, 2014 13:25:46 GMT -5 BioLogIn said:

As for position after T7, it is very reasonable to assume nawglan goes for delay+anti, which is 'default' D-invis weave. However, double anti might do better than what you have tried:

LH: BDPPWSSPF-
RH: BPSDWSSSP-

LH: BSWPPWSPFP
RH: BPSDDWSSPF

Came here to say exactly this. 9/10 when you give the opponent the P/D into invis, they will walk out with a delayed anti spell. You generally need to find a way to get them to burn it- and that double antispell line that Bio suggested is exactly that. They are entering a troll/perma/charm thread with nothing but -/- and 2 moves to counter it. They'll be burning their anti spell, don't worry about that.

Alternatively, I kinda like the following

LH: BDPPWSSPFP
RH: BPSDWSSSPF

LH: BSWPPSFWPP
RH: BPSDDSFFF?

Yes, it gives them the potential delay/antispell/double-anti spell of doom- But they are going to be eating a lot of damage along the way. More than likely, they'll abandon said plan and look to counter your monsters (which is where the counterspell and para help. )

Monsters are a lot stronger than they are given credit for.

[nawglan]

I just saw this thread. I'll have to read it more carefully when I get back from the store. 8) and No, I didn't read the thread during our game.

It's fun playing you bayushi, I hope you stick around.