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Post by ExDeath on Apr 16, 2008 0:30:47 GMT -5
In my studying of games between the current top players, I have found exactly 0 D/P vs D/P openings. Most of you are favoring S/P, or something else entirely. I already know Toyo's thoughts on the subject. So tell me, what is it that has knocked D/P off of its perch for you? Is it an unspoken rule between you to not engage in mirror mayhem? Do you believe your opening is superior, or are you trying to make something else work? I know if I got involved in a ladder match today, I would absolutely open D/P, I wouldn't have to even think about it. So I'm just curious why it isn't more popular.
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Post by BioLogIn on Apr 16, 2008 1:54:56 GMT -5
No agreement as far as I know.
As for myself I thought that lately I open with any of D/P, S/P and F/P equally. I use S/P VS players I suspect to open with S/P (i.e. Toyo) or F/P, because I not confident about playing D/P VS Toyo (that's more personal matter, though, Toyo is my personal crypto), and F/P sucks VS S/P.
In other cases I open F/P and D/P equally, I think. Most D/P players around now know how to combat FF/PS )) so F/P isn't _that_ effective as it was for me a few months ago )) On the other hand, I still feel confident playing F/P VS a D/P. But - again - F/P is plain bad against few other openings, so I use D/P as well.
I haven't really used any other openings for a while, that's true. I guess, that's due to PSxx being powerhouse.
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Post by xade on Apr 16, 2008 2:28:47 GMT -5
While I don't open S/P, I have been opening F/P a lot more recently. Mainly because by opening F/P, you can nearly guarentee a warlock will run DS/PS and follow it through to it's natural FoD stopping conclusion... which tends to leave open the opportunity to sneak in a cause heavy without any overt initiative loss...  But yeah, I think the advent of F/P becoming more popular is the reasons for S/P stepping up... |
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Post by toyotami on Apr 16, 2008 7:37:04 GMT -5
Crypto is Superman's dog's name.
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Post by BioLogIn on Apr 16, 2008 7:42:35 GMT -5
??really?? I must admit, I never seen any of (whatever)men movies, so... I didn't mean to offend anyway (
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Post by toyotami on Apr 16, 2008 17:56:32 GMT -5
Never an offence, Bio. In fact, i think he was a "crime solving" dog. |
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Post by xade on Apr 16, 2008 18:13:58 GMT -5
Never an offence, Bio. In fact, i think he was a "crime solving" dog. I thought that was "night dog"? |
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Post by Dubber on Apr 16, 2008 18:35:02 GMT -5
Also "Hong Kong Phooey" was a crime solving dog
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Post by awall on Apr 16, 2008 22:46:06 GMT -5
Exdeath:
I totally agree with you that D/P is the best opening on the market today (which I feel is sorta unfortunate for the state of the game, but that's been discussed elsewhere). My reluctance to use it is mostly aesthetic. I really hate D/P mirror matches, but I know that if I did wind up in one - especially against a good player - I'd be very hesitant to break it with a suboptimal move.
You'll notice that I still open S/W frequently, even though I fully recognize that it's a weak opening these days. Part of my tendency toward S/P and S/W is just that my games seem more interesting when I start with those openings than when I do D/P.
But then again, I haven't opened D/P in a good long while. Maybe I ought to try it again. I'm just worried about winding up in a D/P loop. How do D/P'ers like yourself avoid games from turning into an endless string of DPPPSDD?
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Post by xade on Apr 16, 2008 23:15:18 GMT -5
calling for an Unloop is what I normally do. Seems to work a treat, while also opening a world of possibilities. |
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Post by Citanest on Apr 17, 2008 5:21:03 GMT -5
I get in a D/P loop often, and I hate it. I desperately want a rule change so it isn't a problem anymore.
Recently I've taken to making "No opening with the gesture P" a standard battle condition.
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Post by Dubber on Apr 17, 2008 7:49:04 GMT -5
Exdeath: I totally agree with you that D/P is the best opening on the market today (which I feel is sorta unfortunate for the state of the game, but that's been discussed elsewhere). Time to display my ignorance again  In an F/P vs D/P opening does the advantage not go to the F/P player (who plays the F/P right?) I know ExDeath analyzed the crap out of the various openings, & F/P is kind of rigid at the start, but handled properly it feels like F/P is a credible response to D/P. Or am I just flapping my gums? (and / or do I just not grok the proper D/P response(s) to F/P?) |
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Post by Slartucker on Apr 17, 2008 8:35:16 GMT -5
F/P has its own problems as it tends to lead to gross amounts of para. Plus F/P is weaker against some other openings. But no, the advantage does not necessarily go to the F/P player.
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Post by BioLogIn on Apr 17, 2008 11:58:35 GMT -5
I started to write D/P vs F/P analysis a while ago. It appeared to be an enormous work thanks to clashing enchantments on each turn, so I haven't finished writing it down yet. But to make a long story short:
In FF/PS vs DP/PS, F/P player has better options, and D/P player is put on the defence. In FF/PS vs DS/PS, and _both_ players are limited to very few weave patterns, but likely outcome is slightly better for D/P player.
Summing all up, F/P vs D/P is even match up, with slight F/P advantage. IMHO.
F/P, however, is weak vs many other openings, including S/P.
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Post by ExDeath on Apr 17, 2008 14:15:31 GMT -5
F/P vs D/P all depends on the second gesture; it's not clear cut. F-player can go PW or PS, D/P player can do all sorts of things...even DP/PW is fine. I would say F/P is the only opening that CAN gain a nice advantage against D/P early, but it can also wind up with a big disadvantage. And it's certainly not as flexible against other openings, so, personally I wouldn't touch it.
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