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Post by vermont on Jul 24, 2007 17:56:21 GMT -5
Perhaps someone has suggested this variant in the past. If so, I apologize. Please set me straight.
I was thinking about having a game type where players have a limited number of pre-match points. Spells each cost a certain number of points, and before the match each player individually chooses (buys) the spells they want to use in the match. The lists are revealed before the first turn via PM.
If anyone has any interest, I will draft up a list of spells and initial point values.
Thoughts?
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Post by ExDeath on Jul 24, 2007 22:05:08 GMT -5
I like your idea in theory, being from a CCG background, but I think it would take a lot of work to implement. Here are some problems I see with it:
1.) Warlocks doesn't have _that_ many spells to begin with. If you cut the spellbook in half, it becomes painfully obvious what the other person is trying to do, ruining the fun of the game.
2.) Counterspell would be absolutely nuts in this variant, so it should probably be banned. Even if it cost me 75% of all my points for that one spell I'd still take it, along with FoD and whatever else I could afford. Summon Ogre could probably be banned as well. Shield & Magic Missile should be free.
3.) If you make all the mind spells really expensive, since they are the most frequently used spells, you'll end up facing opponents that only have 1 or 2, so it's really easy to win with silly stuff like undefendable diseases and FoDs. But if you make the kill spells too expensive, everyone will just run with 5 mind spells and a goblin. I think the format would be too stagnant whichever way you go.
Overall, I like the idea, so I'm willing to test it out with you and maybe work on some preliminary point values. But I don't think it would be much more than a novelty in the end.
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Post by vermont on Jul 24, 2007 23:31:23 GMT -5
I agree that having limited spells would be the primary shortcoming to this variant. The really interesting part would come from the spell choices you made compared to the ones made by the other person. When I get some time I'll come up with a prelim list and we can give it a try.
I agree that shield should be free, but not so much with magic missle. Granted, magic missle should be cheap, probably just a single point, but why not give the option to let the person spend that point elsewhere if they want?
Counters should either both be free, or alternatively cost so much that if you choose both you won't have much of an arsenal to work with. Only having one of the counters available would make for some interesting matches!
Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I'll be in touch.
Cheers!
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Post by vermont on Jul 24, 2007 23:33:04 GMT -5
One other though I had is that this makes for an interesting handicapping situation. A much stronger player might get a few less points making the game a little more even.
One more thing to think about, anyway.
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Post by Slartucker on Jul 25, 2007 21:20:38 GMT -5
I like the idea, but think it would work better with a greatly expanded list of spells.
Also, one huge question -- does your opponent get to know what spells are in your repetoire automatically, or not? If not that changes the game drastically (and makes it feel much less like warlocks, imho).
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Post by vermont on Jul 25, 2007 21:33:59 GMT -5
I was thinking that before the game started, each player would find out what the other chose. They you would know before the beginning of the game if you have to defend para/fod or charm/bolt or whatever. Would make for some very interesting, diverse play. (in theory, anyway.)
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Post by vermont on Jul 26, 2007 10:17:40 GMT -5
Another interesting concept might be the 'buy as you go' game where you don't buy the spell until the first time you cast it.
Although that would probably make para/FoD to powerful.
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Post by vermont on Jul 26, 2007 23:12:55 GMT -5
ok, so here is a quick first version of spell costs. I realize that it may not be anywhere close to good yet. However, the nice part is that two players using it will both be working off the same list, so any shortcomings in the layout will equally affect both players. It is just one more interesting part of the pre-game spell choosing process. You'll notice that spells that are cast less frequently tend to be much cheaper. I think this will lead to more interesting, varied, strategies. Para/FoD is still an option, but the other player will know that's your plan ahead of time and be able to plan their counter based off what they've selected. I hope the process proves interesting. To play a game with this variation, the two players would first agree to an amount of points to spend (perhaps 25) and then chose their spells. They would then PM each other their list (I choose spells 1, 4, etc) and then the game would begin. That part would require trust, so perhaps a third party would need to be involved. The other option would be that both players send their move list as the text with their first move. So, the first move is made in the dark, and then after that you know what your opponent is working with. As I'm typing it, I like that option, but I need to think about it more. Currently shield is the only free spell, although I thought about making it 1, just so a player could have the option to go for a more interesting combo if they wanted to leave it out. The counters are actually rather expensive. I like that because it will really make the game be much more about spell choices ahead of time. Sure, you can take both counters, but if the other player doesn't they'll have a lot more offensive firepower. Anyway, its a first draft. I am definitely open to input. Just be gentle 1. (0) Shield 2. (2) Protection 3. (6) Counter Spell (WPP) 4. (5) Counter Spell (WWS) 5. (3) Remove Enchantment 6. (3) Dispel Magic 7. (2) Magic Mirror 8. (4) Summon Goblin 9. (4) Summon Ogre 10. (3) Summon Troll 11. (3) Summon Giant 12. (2) Summon Ice Elemental 13. (2) Summon Fire Elemental 14. (3) Fear 15. (16) Paralysis 16. (4) Amnesia 17. (3) Confusion/Maladroitness 18. (3) Charm Monster 19. (5) Charm Person 20. (5) Anti-spell 21. (0) Magic Missile 22. (4) Cause Light Wounds 23. (4) Cause Heavy Wounds 24. (4) Fireball 25. (2) Clap of Lightning 26. (5) Lightning Bolt 27. (2) Cure Heavy Wounds 28. (2) Cure Light Wounds 29. (4) Disease 30. (3) Poison 31. (6) Finger of Death 32. (1) Blindness (DWFFd) 33. (1) Blindness (DFWFd) 34. (6) Invisibility 35. (4) Permanency 36. (3) Time Stop (SPPFD) 37. (1) Time Stop (SPPc) 38. (4) Delay Effect 39. (4) Haste 40. (2) Ice Storm 41. (2) Fire Storm 42. (2) Resist Heat 43. (1) Resist Cold
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Post by toyotami on Aug 1, 2007 8:44:32 GMT -5
I think Summon Giant should be more expensive than Troll (are they not more common coming from WFP...
Other than that i cant see any major faults until it is trialed (I'm into giving it a burl.)
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Post by vermont on Aug 2, 2007 13:54:07 GMT -5
I modified the list to change giant from 2 to 3. I don't want to make it any more expensive, since it is a longer spell and more prone to interruption. I'll pm you for a game and we can give it a try.
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Aug 9, 2007 8:31:12 GMT -5
Okay, there are a number of problems with this list.
Firstly: paralysis. Paralysis is annoying chiefly because a player can devote one hand entirely to paralysis and still be somewhat competitive. This makes it vastly more powerful than any other individual spell. 6 points is a joke - it ought to be somewhere near 20, and more than that in ParaFF. Combined with summoning or FoD, it's a killer.
Blindness is scarcely used. Dividing it into two variants is unnecessary, and pricing each of these variants so highly is crazy. 4 points would be a high price for both, they should come in total at 2 or 3.
Poison is very hard to get off, being susceptible to countering. 6 points is too high. 3 would perhaps be about right. It ought to be worth less than Disease, which should maybe be about 4.
FoD needs quite a bit of support to be useful, unless allied to the all-powerful paralysis. I'd suggest 5 or 6 points as a ballpark figure.
Cures are less useful than causing wounds. I'd pull them down to 2 or 3 points.
Charm Monster should be worth less than Charm Person, because it can be an entirely useless spell if your opponent didn't take any summons.
I'd be tempted to make Magic Missile free simply because it's one of the spells most likely to be forgotten about while people are embarked on a Charm or Fireball, and if people forget about it they won't change the default target.
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Post by Rycchus on Aug 28, 2007 10:03:09 GMT -5
It'd be interesting to see who bought which version of Blindness though. I agree with what Tali said about the paralysis. Are stabs free?
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Post by vermont on Aug 28, 2007 10:10:48 GMT -5
I've updated the spell list based on the various feedback I've received. Please peruse and let me know your thoughts. If anyone is up for a game I'd be happy to give it a try.
And yes, stabs are free.
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Post by Slartucker on Aug 28, 2007 11:38:33 GMT -5
Some comments: Protection is only important against monsters, yet it costs nearly as much as permanent monster solutions (4 for wounds, 5 for charm, even 3 for PDWP and cDPW).
You *cannot* choose not to cast an elemental or storm by targetting it at nobody, so I would almost recommend making them free as well. Otherwise what happens if I need to clap mirror after a coincidental SWW?
Confusion should be worth 4, but Maladroit is correct at 3. Confusion is extremely powerful. I'd consider making Charm Person cost 5 -- it's the most robust disruption and also powerful. It definitely shouldn't be cheaper than Anti-spell, which is much less useful and no more powerful.
The cures are still overcosted at 3. They have such a piddly effect on the game and their spellflow is not very useful. I'd put them at 2 each.
Disease and poison are still overcosted. Listen to Taliesin! 4 and 3 are much better than 5 and 4.
I don't necessarily object to blindness costing 1, but it might be too cheap. It's not a bad spell, you just have to be judicious about its use. 1 makes it a little too easy to throw in, imho. Ditto for SPPc. But I'd be interested to see how they play out.
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Post by vermont on Aug 28, 2007 14:51:52 GMT -5
I _did_ listen to Taliesin and made almost every change he suggested. I just misread the disease/poison line.
Good point re protection. It has been lowered.
And I had accidentally switched the cost of charm person/monster. Should be more to both our likings now.
Cures lowered to 2.
My only concern is that all the changes (except para) have been to lower the cost of the spell. I had been thinking a 25 point game, but now such a larger collection of spells is available for that many points. But we'll see how it plays out.
Good point re the elemental/storm problem. Let me think on it.
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