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Post by succat on May 23, 2008 20:09:11 GMT -5
I don't know if this has already been discussed, but lately I have been curious how everyone found the game of Warlocks.
It's interesting to me that there are not more 'regulars'... I think Warlocks is such a unique game, yet the number of people actively playing it and analyzing it (yes, I will include you Masters here) seems very low when compared with other on-line games. Also, what a diverse group of regular players we have from all around the world!
So I am trying to understand why this game isn't taking off, can anyone straighten me out here? (I understand Warlocks was based on a pen & paper game.)
For myself, I had heard about 'Firetop Mountain' for years because a good friend of mine was into it. I looked at the rules of the game one time and just figured it was something that computer hackers (like my friend) played - it just seemed too complex, I didn't get it at all. Finally, in August of last year after my friend had been talking about it again, I decided to learn the game - and I was absolutely hooked!
After about 2 months of playing 'Firetop Mountain', I started wishing there were more people to play against, and I was also disappointed with the 'slowness' factor of emailing moves back and forth. I'd heard from my friend that there might be an on-line version of the game, and so that is how I stumbled across Warlocks.
What's your story?
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Post by Citanest on May 24, 2008 6:08:36 GMT -5
Back in late 2002 I had just started university, and stumbled across RavenBlack's site looking for articles on philosophy. I looked at his games section and Warlocks seemed very interesting. So I had a go (I lost my first ever game, opening SWWc/WDDc) . The game was very unique with lots of depth, and I carried on playing.
I think the reason it isn't more popular is the ridiculously steep learning curve. You need to be quite intelligent to even begin to interpret seemingly arbitrary lines of letters and figure out what the hell is going on.
And once you've learnt the rules, you have to spend some time getting battered by all and sundry before you learn to play properly and can win some games. All in all, you need patience, perseverance and must be quite brainy to get into this game. That's why these boards require nil moderation - everyone is smart, thoughtful and intelligent by default. Obviously not all internet gamers fulfil these criteria, so the community will remain small.
Additionally, Warlocks occupies a no-mans land between credible strategy game and fantasy role-play (at least in terms of coming up in search results) - chess players could be put off by the fantasy element, and WoW players would be put of by the lack of graphics and action.
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Post by Slartucker on May 24, 2008 8:09:51 GMT -5
I came across it via RavenBlack's site, which I found via a blog meme of one of RavenBlack's "which one are you" quizzes.
I think the bulk of strategy game players would have no problem with a mild fantasy theme such as Warlocks possesses; however, that theme is ten times stronger in the game's introduction than in the game itself.
I do think there is a large potential audience for Warlocks among CCG players, and if I ever wanted to advertise it, CCG forums and gaming conventions would be where I would go first.
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Post by freesoul on May 24, 2008 11:51:06 GMT -5
I found it via the Vampires game. Vampires quickly became boring, but warlocks stuck.
I think many people don't have the patience to learn the game, as the learning curve is steep, but it could take a week to finish your first game... most people need some instant gratification to decide whether the game is worth investing time.
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Post by nawglan on May 24, 2008 13:50:25 GMT -5
I too came here by way of Vampires. Found that one by googling (..., that feels funny to type... should it even be a word?) for a free rpg to play at work. Wish I could remember my first game. But I do remember working out various ways to weave spells on graph paper. Now? I just play by the seat of my pants. It's much more fun to stumble on something very strategic these days. Or, it could be I'm just sandbagging... pushin my elo/rank down to snag some young bloods. 8)
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Post by BioLogIn on May 24, 2008 13:54:08 GMT -5
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Post by awall on May 24, 2008 18:01:07 GMT -5
I found this through the back way sort of. I happen to be a big fan of Tom Jolly (board game designer, has a pretty good track record with me) so one day I was browsing his site and clicking on links. His site links to Board Game Cabinet, which links to the original rules for Waving Hands. The rules seemed extremely elegant and well thought out, so I tried the game out with my girlfriend and really enjoyed it. A bit of googling and link-clicking later, I found Warlocks.
I got steamrolled by Asgardian my first game (opened WWS/SPFP into an Ogre, didn't realize how much better a 2/2 is in Warlocks than in Magic) but I picked up the game pretty quickly after that.
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Post by succat on May 25, 2008 11:15:51 GMT -5
Yes, the complexity of the game was the biggest turn off for me... Looking back, though, if I had found Warlocks before I started playing Firetop Mountain, I don't think things would have been quite as frustrating. With Warlocks, you just point and click to make a move, but with Firetop Mountain you have to layout your moves in an email, and it's so easy to make mistakes that way. So that, coupled with the complex spell system made for a frustrating experience at first, but it was well worth the trouble. Some of you will laugh because I had to go look up 'CCG' (Slartucker) to see what it meant. That just goes to show what a non-geek I am. I figured it was something to do with 'Magic', the card game (I had heard of that before). But I agree, the game (Warlocks) is sort of in a place all by itself, and maybe if it was advertised more it would get more players. After all, if thousands of people are willing to sit around and play card games with pictures of monsters and what not, and take the time to learn all of that, I would think that Warlocks would be simple enough for them to learn, just as fun if not more so, and would have the added bonus of not having to leave your home to go play... but again, I'm no geek and am probably overlooking something BIG here  Not being a programmer by nature, I started learning some programming just so that I can write my own version of the game someday (I'm sure that's been discussed before), and write whatever else kind of game I want as well. Some of you on here seem to have a knack for programming already ... Nawglan, Bio, Awall (I know I'm missing some people, Vermont, maybe?) I believe RavenBlack did it with php and mysql, but if there was a way to make the game simpler, yet just as fun and not boring, without such a steep learning curve - well.. that would be something! I suppose it would end up being a vastly different game... BTW, has anyone tried this? rtwavinghands.sphosting.com/fod.htm -and what's up with the art work?? |
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Post by BioLogIn on May 25, 2008 12:58:36 GMT -5
"I believe RavenBlack did it with php"
Perl. But he admits nowadays one should look towards PHP
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Post by Slartucker on May 25, 2008 13:13:55 GMT -5
Succat -- I'm pretty sure that site is defunct. A lot of people have had the idea to make an "improved" online version of Waving Hands. The most commonly cited improvements are custom spellbooks and real-time play. Though pretty cool, none of these ideas have ever gotten off the ground, because 1) it involves an immense amount of work, and 2) RB's implementation, while it does not do everything, is quite excellent at what it does do.
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Post by xade on May 25, 2008 18:33:03 GMT -5
I can't remember how I found this site... I remember playing Vampires before Warlocks though... hmmm, I either found RB's site through Vampires, or the other way around... I did however find Gothador through Vampires... man, did *that* game eat up lot of my time!  |
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on May 26, 2008 19:10:55 GMT -5
Spellcast.
Eleven or twelve years ago, I was a teenager bitten by the computer bug, and used to code small games with a schoolfriend. Through the agency of this schoolfriend, I was introduced to Linux (Slackware, at that - with Enlightenment for my window manager.) And, on Linux, there was a game called Spellcast, a multiplayer game of duelling wizards which was none other than the original version of Waving Hands ported to computer. Antispell was SPF, and it lacked the gameplay refinements of the more modern versions, but I played around with it and liked it. I didn't know anyone with the same kind of love of strategy games and a Linux install, though, so my interest never really went anywhere.
A number of years (and a degree) later, I was a bored research assistant with a fairly standard issue Linux box, along with the standard assortment of Linux games available. I can't remember all the details, but I suspect I was trying to find out whether there was an easy way to play Spellcast online when I stumbled across Warlocks. I adapted to what seemed a much clumsier interface, and the rest is history.
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Derfel
Ronin Warlock
Did I Do That?
Troublemaker
Posts: 283
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Post by Derfel on May 26, 2008 21:58:15 GMT -5
Back in 1999, I started playing 'Firetop Mountain' at my workplace, because quality assurance at a software development firm was boring. I stopped playing FM because games were starting to take weeks to complete.
Then I stumbled across Ravenblack's version in 2006, when bored at work again. So far, most of my games are completed in a week's time, if not less.
As for attractive players - may I suggest scantily clad women?
Oh - so there's hope that I might actually improve at some point?
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Post by nawglan on May 27, 2008 11:51:51 GMT -5
I can't remember how I found this site... I remember playing Vampires before Warlocks though... hmmm, I either found RB's site through Vampires, or the other way around... I did however find Gothador through Vampires... man, did *that* game eat up lot of my time! Ya, Gothador ate up a LOT of my time too. heh. Played that for quite some time (Emrys, Nudd, Nawglan). Glad to never have to buy another USP potion though. I often look back and wonder if I should play again, but the time sink is too much when there are much better time sinks out there now (WoW, Age of Boobs Conan). |
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Post by vilhazarog on May 27, 2008 13:53:52 GMT -5
Back in ancient times (1993) I posted a message to rec.games.design looking for a strategy based wizard duel type of game. Through the magic of google, you can see the message here, as well as the responses: groups.google.com/group/rec.games.design/browse_thread/thread/204009fca2c44e6a/43e9f9d99c5c179c?lnk=gst&q=Perrine#43e9f9d99c5c179cOne of those responders posted the complete rules to Waving Hands. I loved it and hung on to that post... I spent a little time implementing the rules in perl for fun. I only got half way through before losing interest. Later I started it up again, in java... again only getting partway through before dropping it. Then in 2002 or so I picked up Eclipse and decided to pick up my spellcaster implemenation again... this time I got it almost completely finished, with a front end that let me play with friends on a MUCK I've hung out on since college. Sadly, no one wanted to play, too hard. Then I had issues with the rules that were unclear, or contradictory... I began to search the web to see if anyone was playing this game, and if the rules had been updated, etc... and that's how I found Warlocks. |
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