Threefold Repetition

[Wider, adepte of evil forces]

Hi

Are there any rules like in chess, concerning perpetual repetition or stuck situations?
I think there can be situations in which the wizard who moves first (by not doing a defensive, but aggressive move) will lose the game.

Or as an extreme, what happens if both players cast permanent Amnesia on each other?

Will the game go on forever or finally be a draw?

Greetings,
Wider

PS: Yes, perhaps I am to much of an theorist

[BioLogIn]

In Warlocks, a player that is permanently affected by mind spell gets 'suicide' button.

[awall]

Oct 23, 2008 13:49:24 GMT -5 Wider, adepte of evil forces said:

Hi

Are there any rules like in chess, concerning perpetual repetition or stuck situations?
I think there can be situations in which the wizard who moves first (by not doing a defensive, but aggressive move) will lose the game.

Maybe not lose the game outright, but there is the problem of the D/P loop. The "best" play for each player to make in a mirrored D/P opening looks like this:

DPPP
PSDD

Each player targets his opponent with Amnesia on turn 3, resulting in the repeated gesture on turn 4. But look, we're back to D/P again, and the situation repeats.

This isn't quite a stalemate, because each player also got tagged with a Magic Missile on turn 3, which means if this repeats over and over, both players will slowly wear down each others life totals. Eventually the best play becomes something different that I haven't figured out yet.

Nevertheless, the problem with this is that it's boring for the first 30 or so turns of the game, and if any player tries to do something to break the loop, this puts them at a definite disadvantage. A workaround is to mutually agree to break the loop (usually done by both players going DPPPWS/PSDDWS), but this requires collusion, and is somewhat inelegant.

In answer to your question, no, there isn't anything in the rules to prevent this from going to its natural conclusion. Exdeath and Slartucker have gone all the way through with it, and it doesn't sound like it was particularly enjoyable. I try to avoid opening D/P for this reason, but that's also sub-optimal, because D/P really is the best opening in the game.

Hopefully, some day we'll figure out a solution for this.

[BioLogIn]

awall
1) This obviously was not what 'adepte of evil forces' was asking.
2) ExDeath claims that he has found an exit from the loop.
3) I've also have some ideas about this loop, and I'm willing to share after the tourney (or in the play-off XD).

[awall]

Oct 23, 2008 14:56:35 GMT -5 BioLogIn said:

awall
1) This obviously was not what 'adepte of evil forces' was asking.
2) ExDeath claims that he has found an exit from the loop.
3) I've also have some ideas about this loop, and I'm willing to share after the tourney (or in the play-off XD).

1) It actually is, though. It's a situation where the optimal play for both players is to repeat the same moves over and over. The only difference between this and a chess-like stalemate is that the missiles force this one to end eventually.

2) I wasn't aware of that. I was under the impression that he knew the proper place to break it off, but that didn't occur until it had repeated a good number of times.

As far as positions that result in a loss for the first player to break the repetition, the only one I've even been able to concoct is this:


A: Health: (more than 1) Forgetful (permanent)
FFFF...
>>>>...

B: Health: 1, Paralyzed (LH)
DDDD...
PPPP...


The only way this can end is for the players to agree to either 1) A suicides and B doesn't shield on the same turn; or 2) A targets both hands at nobody, B PDWP's him, and then they both surrender the next turn. If one player disappears off the face of the planet, then not even a FS can end this one.

But given what it would take to get into this position, I don't think we're ever in danger of it actually occurring.

[BioLogIn]

awall
2) well, it is some exit after all. even if it appears at, say, 7hp and not at 15...

[ExDeath]

Yeah the loop has to end sometime, after all. The best way can't be to let it go to 1 and double death.

Of course, my best time to end the loop assumes my opponent doesn't know about it and will continue the loop on that turn. If both players know the spot, they could continue mirroring, or find a counter, and then you have to look for a counter to the counter etc. It's complicated.

Anyway...no, Wilder, there's no perpetual check or repetition or anything like that in Warlocks. I'm not sure what you mean by "moving first"..both warlocks move simultaneously, so zugzwang is also impossible. If both players were afflicted with permanent Amnesia or Fear (something I've never seen), I suppose they'd have to use the honor system and agree on a turn to double death or double surrender. It is interesting though...what if double Amnesia happened at the top of the ladder? Would both warlocks just keep the game in stasis forever rather than lose all their ladder points?

[Dubber]

When Ravenblack runs the cleanup script (which used to run monthly) the games in which either player has a Force Surrender are terminated.

I don't remember if it's just an automatic forced surrender or if it's more reliable than that, but I do remember I was holding a game (way back in the <10,000 game counts) open where my opponent had Perm Amnesia and then went away without ending it.

That game terminated after two months of inactivity.

[Slartucker]

I thought it was a set length of time (30 days) without a move being made, caused an automatic forced surrender... not the cleanup script. Could be wrong though.

[awall]

I had a game going with azurekhan for about 6 months with no moves. He disappeared, but it was a good game, and it wasn't like I had any shortage of slots, so I decided to keep it around. I forget whether I FS'd it eventually or whether it got automatically wiped, but I think the latter.

[Dubber]

For the last little while, Ravenblack has been less than 'regular' with the cleanup script. We had a good 5-8 month stretch where the games weren't wiped (while nawglan's archive was down, I think)

It seems like the script is back and running again, though in the middle of the month instead of at the end

[nawglan]

fyi: It only runs when he wants to run it.