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Post by succat on Nov 1, 2008 20:48:56 GMT -5
So I was talking to the friend of mine responsible for getting me into Waving Hands, and we were discussing the issue of paralysis being overly powerful in Warlocks.
It's a shame that he doesn't want to play Warlocks because of that one issue, but he likes the way paralysis works in Firetop Mountain ( para only cancels out para, not other mind spells ).
Now has this been discussed much on here, the less deadly paralysis of Firetop Mountain? And is this something that would be a compromise for players in Warlocks if para was changed to the way it is on Firetop Mountain?
I like para the way it is in Warlocks obviously, and I like how it stands out from other mind spells and adds another element to the game, but I hear so many players saying that it should be changed. I don't want that to happen, but if it did, or if someone was to create their own version of Warlocks, would the para of Firetop Mountain be an acceptable way to go? I await your thoughts...
( Personally, I feel that the para of Firetop Mountain is too weak, but many are saying that the para of Warlocks is too strong. What say you? )
~ the `Cat
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Post by ExDeath on Nov 1, 2008 21:15:33 GMT -5
By Firetop Mountain, you mean the default rules, where C -> F and not the other way around? ParaFC was created to stop ParaFoD from being too powerful and to make it so permanent para-chains were tougher to achieve. We're already a step up from those rules, I think.
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Post by succat on Nov 1, 2008 21:30:23 GMT -5
By Firetop Mountain, you mean the default rules, where C -> F and not the other way around? ParaFC was created to stop ParaFoD from being too powerful and to make it so permanent para-chains were tougher to achieve. We're already a step up from those rules, I think. But even with paraFC ( which is really the variant I play the most, with maladroit, of course ), there are complaints that para is still too powerful. Remember, para in Firetop Mountain does not cancel other mind spells, only another para. Therefore, in my opinion, it's even weaker than the para of Warlocks ( even with the paraFC variant ). So if it's weaker, would players like it better? That's my question.
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Post by Slartucker on Nov 1, 2008 22:12:17 GMT -5
Firetop Mountain originally used standard FF Para, and at some point they changed the rules so that para does not bounce with other mind spells but is simply overwritten by them.
I'm not sure what it's actually good for at that point.
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Post by ExDeath on Nov 1, 2008 22:29:07 GMT -5
Nobody has complained that para is too powerful, that's only you succat. The complaint is that it leads to games which are less interesting and take longer.
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Post by succat on Nov 1, 2008 23:25:49 GMT -5
Nobody has complained that para is too powerful, that's only you succat. The complaint is that it leads to games which are less interesting and take longer. I disagree with that. Checkout the links below and you will see comments about para being "over-powered", or how it could be "toned down" or "weakened", or how it's a "broken spell", etc.. slarty.proboards56.com/index.cgi?board=warlocks&action=display&thread=255slarty.proboards56.com/index.cgi?board=warlocks&action=display&thread=103slarty.proboards56.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=243&page=1In that last link, Bio himself, a true pioneer of Para said the following: 3) Your own game history is the very proof for the fact that we desperately need to change the game system. The fact that one can compete on the top of the current level using ONLY para in LH means that para is better (or, rather, no worse) then ANY other spellflow. And that is most certainly not the right thing. I have no qualms against you personally at all (you just exploited this game imbalance way better then anybody before), it is still imbalance, and - again - your games are the very proof of this )) So please consider trying to play w\o para sometimes, because sooner or later this will be fixed in some way.
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Post by ExDeath on Nov 1, 2008 23:29:47 GMT -5
Well, he corrected himself to say that it's no worse than any other spellflow, which I can agree with to a certain extent. I think his point is, the fact that someone using only FFFFFFFFF for an entire game is a valid strategy at all (whether better or worse) means something is broken with the system.
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Post by succat on Nov 1, 2008 23:44:56 GMT -5
Well, he corrected himself to say that it's no worse than any other spellflow, which I can agree with to a certain extent. I think his point is, the fact that someone using only FFFFFFFFF for an entire game is a valid strategy at all (whether better or worse) means something is broken with the system. Exactly, that's my point. Para is too strong. And others have said similar things as you will see from those links. (although I think para is good the way it is)
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Post by ExDeath on Nov 1, 2008 23:51:57 GMT -5
Ok...we differ on our definitions of "strong", but I think "too prevalent" would be a better way to phrase it. The fact that it's so easy is really the main problem.
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Post by succat on Nov 2, 2008 0:03:34 GMT -5
The fact is, some people are saying it's over-powered.
Slartucker mentioned that he's not sure what the current para of Firetop Mountain would be good for... I tend to agree. I think it's not completely useless, but pretty darn weak. My friend thinks that it's better that way because then it won't be overused as it is in Warlocks, which I thought is what some people here want. So, I guess my question is: Would the current weakened version of para in Firetop Mountain be an acceptable substitute for the current para in Warlocks?
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Post by ExDeath on Nov 2, 2008 0:23:18 GMT -5
I don't really think it changes anything for the better, to be honest. When I started playing, that mode was the norm, and para was overused, which is why ParaFC became the norm. You can still chain para repeatedly on one hand, and they can chain para repeatedly on one hand too, making the games even more boring. It also makes random annoying FoD wins more frequent. Overall, it's bad for the game.
I think the real problem with Para is the fact that it's spammable. Any offensive spell which can be cast for a single gesture once the chain is started has potential for abuse and overuse. ParaFDF is a step in the right direction, but it interacts poorly with other spellchains. I still feel like Panic or some similar variant is the best solution short of banning Para completely and making F's quite worthless.
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Post by succat on Nov 2, 2008 0:37:49 GMT -5
From what I remember of Firetop, you could not use para to defend monsters from a charm-monster or yourself from a charm-person, unless you had a counter-spell or another mind-spell on the other hand. That kinda killed the para-chaining for me. Also, paraFoD didn't seem like much of a threat because all you had to do was throw a fear or get an anti-spell through (or maybe a confusion) , and there was no way to bounce a fear spell off of paralysis. So, it would seem that if you tried to just spam para in Firetop, you'd get slaughtered completely, whereas with Warlocks you can spam para pretty well if you know when to throw it and when to bounce it. I think if the Warlocks version of para was replaced with the Firetop version of para, that would solve the para-spamming problem in Warlocks because spamming para in Firetop is a certain way to defeat if you're playing anybody worth their salt.
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Post by ExDeath on Nov 2, 2008 1:03:33 GMT -5
I didn't know about para not cancelling with charm, that is an interesting change worthy of consideration. In the original Warlocks version, it did cancel.
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Post by Slartucker on Nov 2, 2008 6:03:05 GMT -5
Slartucker mentioned that he's not sure what the current para of Firetop Mountain would be good for... I tend to agree. I think it's not completely useless, but pretty darn weak. My friend thinks that it's better that way because then it won't be overused as it is in Warlocks, which I thought is what some people here want. So, I guess my question is: Would the current weakened version of para in Firetop Mountain be an acceptable substitute for the current para in Warlocks? No, absolutely not. It messes with too many subtle game dynamics to make F completely useless as a short spell starter. ExDeath's efforts to replace para are very worthy of consideration. Completely nerfing the spell is not.
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Post by saypin on Nov 4, 2008 23:45:41 GMT -5
Don't you think that removing parachains from Warlocks leads to much more boring games?
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