Games 56984 and 56985

[awall]

I plan to use this thread to try to analyze a pair of games I just lost to Slartucker. If anybody other than he or myself is actually still on this board, feel free to post comments.


56984: games.ravenblack.net/warlocks?num=56984&full=1

Geshtinana
Turn:012345678901234567890123456789012345
--LH:BSWWWPF-WWP---DWSSSSPFPSDWFFFFFPSFWF
--RH:BWWPPSD-WWSWDPPWSPSFWPSDFFDPPSDFFDD>
*You were invisible turns 17-19, so I'm not sure what your gestures were. Is this correct?
awall
Turn:012345678901234567890123456789012345
--LH:BDPPSPFPSDFPSWDDCDPWFP-WW-CPSSWPWWSP
--RH:BPSFFFFFFFFFFPSSCPWPPS-WWSCDPPSD-PSP


Here's what I see in this game:
Turn 7: I should have done P/S here. I could have continued with PSD/SWD and threatened either PSDFC/SWDDC or PSDWx/SWDPP, and you would have been able to block only one of these. I realized this right after I'd submitted my P/F.
Turn 12: The possibility of Fear didn't occur to me at all. If I'd noticed that, I would have done something else. Not sure what the best play was, but it sure wasn't S/F.
--Actually, on both of the above, how does paraAntispell usually work? Is it worth going for? And if so, how do you get out cleanly.
Turn 16: I think Clap of Lightning into Dispel Magic was the correct play here. Was it?
Turn 28: You suggested that W/P would have been a better play, and I agree. In general, is that the best way to respond to a threat of amnesia when you're at P/D?
Turn 34: I was afraid that if I countered myself and prepared PS on the other hand, you'd dummy the bolt into FPSFWP/DFFDSF and I'd be pretty much done for. However, even if you did follow through with bolt, I was going to be in hot water; the DSF would have gotten delayed by one turn, but I would have still been at 3 life and trying to deal with a troll. For that reason, it's now pretty obvious to me that you didn't really have a good reason to dummy the bolt (and that I was basically dead at this point to begin with.


56985: games.ravenblack.net/warlocks?num=56985&full=1

Geshtinana
Turn:01234567890123456789012345678901234567890
--LH:BDSFWWSWPSD-PDSFWSDPPSFWPSDFFDDSFWWWSC?PW
--RH:BPSPPPSDSDP>WPPSDPPWWSWPSDFWFDSFWWSPPC?>>
awall
Turn:01234567890123456789012345678901234567890
--LH:BSWDSFWWSPFPSDWPFDPPPPSFWWP-WWSSWWPSDD PP
--RH:BWWPSDFFFSSD-DSFFFSSDDPPSPFS-PSFWWDDWP FD


Turn 20: I'll agree that my P/D probably should have been W/D. The PP was there half to threaten Delay Invis (which, as we discussed earlier, wasn't really a viable threat) and half because I wanted to have the possibility to come out into PS, which I've come to realize was a bad idea.
Turn 26/27: I'm pretty confident that WWP on turn 26 was worth getting charmed for. The alternative would have been to counter the first charm and guarantee the antispell at the cost of getting hit by the second charm and taking two damage from your ogre. However, I'm not sure abandoning the antispell on turn 27 was correct. I was afraid you'd do something like LH:PSDP and charm my left hand into WPP, causing a surrender if I went for the antispell; however, not casting the antispell set me quite a bit behind, and I don't think I ever quite recovered.
Turn 34: Okay, now that the game's over, what should I have done here? I was considering P/D (for Protection/threaten Clap of Lightning), P/F (for Protection, threating wounds on both hands), and C/C (probably wouldn't have done it, but the possibility kept you from countering my protection). You suggested P/W, but I don't really understand why. It would have put me on the defensive, when my only hope at that point was to keep you busy dealing with the threat of a mutual kill.

Afterthought: Regarding the way the game ended... is it just me, or is the timing on monster attacks a bit odd?
Mindspells presumably resolve before monsters attack, as they prevent the attack.
Dispel presumably resolves before mindspells, as it counters them.
Monsters presumably attack before Dispel, as they still get to attack the turn they die.
I realize that Warlocks has special cases out the wazoo, but I think one of the reasons that this use of Dispel didn't occur to me is that, until I read the description more closely, I figured that Dispel would also stop monster attacks. Not trying to make excuses, just saying that the way Dispel works feels a bit weird to me.

[Slartucker]

56984

awall said:

Turn 12: The possibility of Fear didn't occur to me at all. If I'd noticed that, I would have done something else. Not sure what the best play was, but it sure wasn't S/F.

You had several good plays here. W/anything makes up most of the health difference and leaves you comparable to me in spellflow. P/D lets you go Invis Delay if I cast Fear -- likely walking into either WDDcDPW or DPP/invis, but that still gives you a big advantage. You could also continue S/F as you did, but paralyze yourself -- that gives you an ogre if I do cast Fear, and if not you get PSD for a charm that you can dummy into something else. All decent options.

--Actually, on both of the above, how does paraAntispell usually work? Is it worth going for? And if so, how do you get out cleanly.

If you have a monster out, paralyzing a hand to - can be killer. Otherwise I find it doesn't do all that much. Your own hand is stuck doing useless F's, so it's not a huge advantage even with -. Para through an undefended antispell does give you a likely charm (with the perm threat) but that isn't actually an improvement over the antispell. You can try to sneak some initiative off the play by ending para before they expect you to and by dummying an attack like DFFDD, but if you get an antispell or charm off, there are usually (though not always) better options.

Turn 16: I think Clap of Lightning into Dispel Magic was the correct play here. Was it?

Yes, given the spellflow you had. But you only had that spellflow because you went D/S on turn 14, walking into amnesia. The Fear would have been okay if your RH was less incapable of absorbing amnesia. (PS is basically the worst time to be hit with DPP.) Other options for turn 14: D/P with Fear on yourself, which equalizes spellflow if I cast the amnesia. If I dummy into charm it's not as good, but that's a riskier option for me. D/W with Fear on me leaves things more generally even since you have a counter available for invis and it stops me from going DP/PS. It also smacks me around if I go for charm.

Turn 28: You suggested that W/P would have been a better play, and I agree. In general, is that the best way to respond to a threat of amnesia when you're at P/D?

As much as possible, you want to be able to absorb disruptions into your spellflow. For amnesia this means that unless you are blocking it or think it's unlikely to be cast, you'll be happiest with spellflow like DP, WP, WW, DF, FS, FF, and so on. Other gestures can be good situationally and a terminal D is a decent backup since D leads to two useful three-gesture disruptions.

The problem with having an S when you're hit with amnesia is that S's best spells are slow. The only fast S spells are SFW and SWD, and their use is very situational. So as long as those aren't threats, pushing you into SS tells me that, as of the turn of the amnesia, it will be FIVE turns before that hand can possibly cast anything dangerous.

Turn 34: I was afraid that if I countered myself and prepared PS on the other hand, you'd dummy the bolt into FPSFWP/DFFDSF and I'd be pretty much done for. However, even if you did follow through with bolt, I was going to be in hot water; the DSF would have gotten delayed by one turn, but I would have still been at 3 life and trying to deal with a troll. For that reason, it's now pretty obvious to me that you didn't really have a good reason to dummy the bolt (and that I was basically dead at this point to begin with.

Right. I was already quite ahead and had no need to steal a little initiative -- guaranteeing a troll or a bolt would be plenty. Plus, there wasn't much better to dummy into. I suppose DFFDSF if I was sure you'd counter the bolt, but I wasn't. And yes, you were done for at that point

56985

Turn 16: You lost some board position by going for WPFD over WPSD -- particularly since I had a goblin out.

Turn 26/27: I'm pretty confident that WWP on turn 26 was worth getting charmed for. The alternative would have been to counter the first charm and guarantee the antispell at the cost of getting hit by the second charm and taking two damage from your ogre. However, I'm not sure abandoning the antispell on turn 27 was correct. I was afraid you'd do something like LH:PSDP and charm my left hand into WPP, causing a surrender if I went for the antispell; however, not casting the antispell set me quite a bit behind, and I don't think I ever quite recovered.

I think you're right about the WWP; it leaves you open to bolt, but that requires me completing bolt.

In general my attitude on charms and P's is as follows: if you're ahead, there's no good reason to risk surrendering over a P. If you're behind, you might as well risk it. This is particularly true because good players who are ahead are not likely to charm to P, either, as that is riskier in itself. If you don't submit a P and they do, they've effectively nullified or at least blunted their charm, which erodes their lead, possibly by a lot. In this case, by the time the first charm hit, you were in fairly dire straits, and consistent pressure was all I needed to destroy you. Risk-taking was unnecessary.

Turn 34: Okay, now that the game's over, what should I have done here? I was considering P/D (for Protection/threaten Clap of Lightning), P/F (for Protection, threating wounds on both hands), and C/C (probably wouldn't have done it, but the possibility kept you from countering my protection). You suggested P/W, but I don't really understand why. It would have put me on the defensive, when my only hope at that point was to keep you busy dealing with the threat of a mutual kill.

The problem with P/F is that a single wounds does nothing to me whereas a single wounds kills you. Two wounds kills me, but a single counterspell stops it. So if turns 35 I continue towards WS/WF, you are hosed unless you abort one of your wounds spells on turn 35 for W:

3456
WWW
WSW

WPF
WFW

At that point I can abort the counter and continue WWWP/WSWF, which will kill you if you don't continue WPFW/WFW. And at that point your WWP has run out, so you are in a worse situation than before. So your double wounds was a bit of a phantom menace!

The problem with P/D is that, while it does force me to prepare a counter for the clap, it totally destroys the spellflow on your right hand to do so. Without WDD I have no reason to complete the counter and you're hosed. With it, my own RH spellflow can force a counterspell either with SPPc or (more sensibly) SWFP, which are both fatal if uncountered. So your only shot at making P/D work becomes PW/DD.

P/W isn't much better I suppose, but it keeps me guessing, which was your only real chance of surviving. Assuming you are able to survive for a bit it also provides a renewed WWP and a more meaningful offense in PSDx.

Afterthought: Regarding the way the game ended... is it just me, or is the timing on monster attacks a bit odd?
Mindspells presumably resolve before monsters attack, as they prevent the attack.
Dispel presumably resolves before mindspells, as it counters them.
Monsters presumably attack before Dispel, as they still get to attack the turn they die.

Monsters clearly attack after all spells take effect. The simple explanation here is that spell effects are not actually instantaneous. Dispel actually stops other spells from going off, but monsters aren't spells, and it presumably erodes their essence the same way PDWP does. I think it makes sense for that to be slower. Note that attack spells don't stop monsters from attacking either; the only spells that do that are invis, blindness, and FOD.