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Post by mikeEB on Dec 7, 2008 20:50:31 GMT -5
Question 1:Say I have a choice between banking an anti-spell and a mirror. Which one will be more valuable in the long run? On one hand, the psychological effect of a banked mirror is as valuable an asset as the mirror itself. On the other hand, an anti-spell will probably have a larger effect on your opponent's spellflow when it is actually used.
Question 2:If I have a banked anti-spell, how do I decide when to use it?
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Post by xade on Dec 7, 2008 21:22:15 GMT -5
Anti-spell. For starters, your flow will be infinitely better than a cw Next up- the Banked anti-spell I use in two situations. Game winning situation (ie- two turns after the bank, you're lining up a perm/amniesia - then fire away!) Game losing situations - this one is a lot harder to define- but I have seen many a game lost because people refuse to use their antispell in a non-game winning way. Only to wind up 8HP and an ogre down.
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Post by awall on Dec 8, 2008 1:49:17 GMT -5
Keep the Antispell. You bank a mirror, the best you'll do with it is reflect a lightning bolt, and that's if your lucky. 5 damage vs. banked Antispell, I'll take the latter.
If it'll leave you in a position from which you feel you are definitely "ahead", then I'd say fire it. If my opponent summons an Ogre in response to my banking, I'm liable to fire the antispell only a single turn after I bank it, and use the follow up from Antispell to charm the Ogre, while doing something mean with my other hand. Winding up ahead an Ogre and significant initiative is good enough for me.
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Post by saypin on Dec 8, 2008 7:18:00 GMT -5
a banked Antispell... your opponent is a newbie???
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Post by Dubber on Dec 8, 2008 17:39:45 GMT -5
Only go for the banked antispell out of an Invis if at all possible, imho. But yes, banked antispell is "better" than banked mirror in most cases.
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Post by Dubber on Dec 8, 2008 17:41:40 GMT -5
As for Q2: use it when it best suits your flow... awall & xade are right on target, do not *not use* your banked spell. Try to avoid firing it into a counterspell is about the only real "advice" I have for you there
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Dec 10, 2008 9:43:41 GMT -5
a banked Antispell... your opponent is a newbie??? Since you're a bit of a newbie yourself , let me explain... Banked spells are particularly common from this weave, here: xDWSSSP PPWSxxxx Historically, this was a very common situation - both sides would play DPP/PSD, cross Amnesias, and go Invis. The strongest continuation was seen to be banking a spell, and so many matches have been played out with both sides having banked SPFP. There was a sequence of theoretical advances which showed that there were responses to going Invis which devastated attempts at this weave. While most people didn't delve very deeply into them, they saw top players getting into DPPP/PSDD loops, and started mimicking it, many of them being under the misapprehension that summoning an ogre and going Invis second was good enough to bust it. The banked Antispell invis has thus fallen from favour, but it's still playable against all but the most theoretically sound and of course on other occasions when you manage to get into Invis with a D on the other hand. Incidentally, there were a couple of better options than Magic Mirror favoured by people banking spells back in the day; Time Stop and Charm Person spring to mind. Charm Monster, of course, doesn't work well as you need to set the target when you bank the spell.
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Post by Dubber on Dec 10, 2008 18:55:45 GMT -5
"against all but the most theoretically sound" eh? How about "against anyone who doesn't know the optimal tricks" instead? I think this is the money quote
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Post by mikeEB on Dec 11, 2008 19:20:25 GMT -5
Say that I get hit with charm the turn I cast the delay. What spells should I try to bank with the other hand? (of course, if they charm the other hand then bank the anti-spell)
EDIT:Banked Haste looks nuts if you can pull it off. It looks like it means game if they ever let you regain initiative after the clap. In fact SP/XD with banked haste is one of the nastiest forks I've seen in this game. If they don't have a counter or amnesia ready (or, I suppose, anti-spell, charm, invisibility or blindness), you have a guaranteed permanent amnesia. If they do have a counter ready, you can go SPW/XDF and will usually have a guaranteed win via para/FOD. And you don't even need to commit the haste until you know whether or not it will ork.
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Post by maknud on Dec 11, 2008 19:48:49 GMT -5
The only way I can conceive of getting a Banked Haste is through
PPWSDWSSSP _DWSSSP
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Post by mikeEB on Dec 11, 2008 19:55:48 GMT -5
Try: DWSSSPC XPWPWWC
Yes, it's horribly impractical, but it doesn't involve a delayed delay or perm delay.
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Post by awall on Dec 11, 2008 22:51:52 GMT -5
Yes, it's horribly impractical, but it doesn't involve a delayed delay or perm delay. Yes, but it does involve getting a Delay through without using Invis to set it up. I suppose you could be gutsy and run for it out of Blindness, but that requires you casting Blindness without losing a ton of initiative - already an unlikely proposition - and then not getting hit with anything coming out of it. Banked Time Stop gives you many of the nice properties that Banked Haste does, and is actually reasonably feasible to boot.
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Post by mikeEB on Dec 12, 2008 0:09:06 GMT -5
Does banked time stop give you an automatic win if you land an antispell?
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Post by saypin on Dec 12, 2008 4:16:43 GMT -5
Does banked time stop give you an automatic win if you land an antispell? well, if you aren't hit with Fear, Para, Amnesia or Invis/Blind the turn you land Antispell the only way to block a banktimestop permamnesia is a Mirror?
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Dec 12, 2008 11:16:27 GMT -5
With most people who'd let you get a Banked Haste, it would be quicker just to stab them to death. If you're going to bank an unlikely spell, why not go the whole hog and bank FoD? Banked Time Stop is an automatic win if you land an Antispell with the Perm/Blindness weave, or if you land double Antispells. In all other cases, your opponent can and must counter the Perm to survive. Having a Time Stop banked is devastating, because it allows you an attack that cannot be mirrored or countered (nothing else is active in the time-stopped turn but your spell). Even humble Disease turns into as good a game-ender as Poison when you've got a turn in hand. It's about as strong as banked Antispell, I think; it's stronger in some situations, weaker in others. The old rule of thumb was that a banked Antispell was worth about eight health, and the same could probably be said of Time Stop. If you're looking for extravagant finishes though, one of my old favourites was Time-Stopped Finger Of Death. I landed it on a number of pretty strong players, too. It's more dangerous than you might think, because if you get to here against a defensive position: PWP xxS and they enter one more turn of W/P, the game is over. e.g. PWPF xxSP
WWPP PPWW and there is nothing they can do. In two turns they can go Invisible; doesn't matter, the Time Stop punches through the Invisibility and kills them. In three turns they can hit you with Charm or any 3-gesture disruption; doesn't matter, the Time Stopped turn will see you disruption free. They can plump for PDWP to prevent your Time Stop, but that means they can neither land a disruption on you with the other hand nor cast a mirror the turn after. It's fatal. The answer to it, of course, is to be less defensive. PWP should tip you off that bad things are potentially lurking in the near future. However, PWP can be hidden in Invisibility, or a monster wailing on you can encourage you to sit tight until you spy a gap in spellflow, leading to an easily made and very costly mistake.
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