Opening D/P vs. D/P (maladroit)

[awall]

There's an article written about this opening here. It mentions DPPPS/PSDDP as a good opening in D/P vs. D/P matches, and leaves off by saying that if both players do this, it goes into a loop. I think that most people will agree that this leads to a rather uninteresting game, so I'd like to see if I can figure out a way to keep this from occurring. Essentially, what I'm looking for is something I can do that will give me an advantage if my opponent plays exactly this opening. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble so far. Everything I can think of that would allow me to break out of the loop has a best case scenario of putting me about even with my opponent, but nothing I can come up with punishes him for being too predictable. Here's what I have.

Option 1: DS/PS
Yaron's article claims that this opening is about equally as strong as DP/PS. I'll probably try to learn this opening so that I can avoid the aforementioned loop, but I'd still prefer to find something that's a bit more reliably good.

Option 2: Target self with Amnesia on turn 3.
This certainly breaks the loop, but it's a fundamentally flawed solution; at best, you only break even with this, and at worst you could wind up in a really bad position.

Option 3: Go invisible, but don't go for the delayed antispell.
Yaron argues, and my (admittedly limited) personal experience agrees, that DPPPSFWS/PSDDPPWS beats delayed antispell. Are there any alternatives to that? I saw xade attempt PPWSSFW/DDWSSFW and try to take down his opponent's ogre with the goblins, but that strategy didn't work and seems like it is unlikely to ever do so; your opponent will always tell his ogre to attack one of your hands, and it's not hard for him to have a shield on the ogre the turn the goblins come out, especially if he sees you not do a P on the second turn of your invisibility. Doing anything else interesting out of invis is sort of difficult since you got hit with amnesia going in.

Option 4: Are there any less common openings off of D/P? I'm wondering whether DS/PW might work against DP/PS. You can do DSF/PWW and cast maladroitness at yourself, or you can do DSF/PWP and cast it at him; either way guarantees you the turn 4 counterspell to stop yourself from getting charmed. DSFF/PWPP doesn't seem that bad, given that your opponent is maladroit on turn 4:

- If your opponent does DPPW/PSDW, you can continue with DSFFFWS/PWPPPWS and go invisible two turns after him. He doesn't bank a spell because you paralyzed him the turn he went in.
- If he does DPPS/PSDS instead, you do DSFFF/PWPPS and para him. If he hits you with maladroit, you've got the twin threat of Disease or Para/Ogre while he's stuck clapping with one hand. If he maladroits himself, you protect yourself with para next turn and do D on your other hand; at worst, you wind up with PSDD which will keep him from summoning, and at best, they cancel and you can threaten him with Charm.
- F/F and C/C just don't really seem like good options for him. D/D gives him ample ways to get out of a para chain, but doesn't leave him in a position to do much to you.

I'm not sure what happens if he targets himself with the Amnesia on turn 3. If you expect PSDF, you could summon a goblin and counter yourself, or if you expect PSDD you could go for ParaFoD. The safe play is probably to do F/P anyway, but it's not really such a great move if your opponent isn't maladroit. Then again, if you successfully predict that your opponent will cast Amnesia at themself, you can abort Maladroitness for Antispell and they have no defense (not sure what the best play with your other hand is in this case).

I'm actually sort of curious to try out this line now.

Option 5: DPPP/PSWW
Haven't thought much about this line. The first repetition plays out normally, and the second one seems like it'd play out much the same way as Option 2 above. It's safe, but there's still no possibility of gaining anything relative to your opponent - if you counter Amnesia, you're both at PSD/xPP, and if he dummies the Amnesia you're a bit behind (but not as much so as if you'd cast Amnesia at yourself).

These are just the ideas I've come up with. Do any of them sound like they'd work? I'm especially curious about the DS/PW one.

[Slartucker]

Yaron's article is out of date by several years, and didn't reflect his own play even a year ago. There's a newer one (by me) which will be going up on the Refuge soon, as well as a relevant article on targetting disruptions at decision points.

At this point, if two top tier Warlocks open D/P against each other, they will likely have mirrored spellflow at least until:

DPPWSPSDF
PSDWSSSPF-

At each point along the way, somebody has shown the alternatives to be inferior.

DS/PS pretty much loses horribly to DP/PS because of the amnesia threat.

Targetting DPP at yourself is, as you observe, not a good solution.

The problem with ogre/invis is again TaliDelay: you charm the ogre your first turn out of invis and then delay an antispell. Yes, the ogre/invis player can launch a deadly attack out of invis, but the delayer has a chance of avoiding it, and worst case scenario, they just blow their antispell; so it's hard for them to come out behind. If the attack is something like a fireball, that's clearly worth less than a delayed spfp in early game.

The other options you discuss are not necessarily bad but they all put you on the defensive and give your opponent a chance at grabbing initiative. If your opponent is cunning with his dummies, you will lose out bigtime.

[awall]

admin said:

The problem with ogre/invis is again TaliDelay: you charm the ogre your first turn out of invis and then delay an antispell. Yes, the ogre/invis player can launch a deadly attack out of invis, but the delayer has a chance of avoiding it, and worst case scenario, they just blow their antispell; so it's hard for them to come out behind. If the attack is something like a fireball, that's clearly worth less than a delayed spfp in early game.

I'm not sure I see why TaliDelay beats Ogre/Invis. The Goblin/Fear route seems to work pretty well for the Ogre/Invis player.

PPWSSPSD
xDWSSSPF

PPSFWSFW
xDPPWSWD

The first player can't get off a charm if he's hit with Fear the turn he turns visible, and he can't start the charm a turn earlier because he gets hit with Amnesia on the turn he goes invisible. He can still bank an antispell, but he'll have an ogre and potentially a goblin as well to deal with.

[Slartucker]

Hmm, you're right, I forgot about that DPP. It's been a while since I've looked at this. Well, suppose we go to good old WFP:

PPWSSWFP
xDWSSSPFP

PPSFWS
xDPPWS

The ogre only does 2 damage before dying, and goblin/fear is no good. Antispell can hit however, and Double Antispell will force the delayer to blow his banked antispell. Of course, blowing the banked antispell at the right time will nonetheless get him some initiative, enough, IMHO, to justify the loss of 2 life. Also, if TaliDelay is attempted after all the Double Antispell will fail miserably.

[awall]

A:3456789
--PPWSS?
--xDWSSS
B:3456789
--PPSFWS
--xDPPWS


B's play on turn 9 depends on what A did on turn 8. If B saw a shield, then he knows that A isn't preparing wounds. In this case, B does W/P on turn 9. If it continues to:


A:345678901
--PPWSSPSD>
--xDWSSSPFP
B:345678901
--PPSFWSWDx
--xDPPWSPFP


Then A can get rid of the Ogre, but it will cost him four health and he'll probably have to fire his banked antispell in short order to prevent a permanency attack. If A instead goes for the standard Double Antispell weave, B can do WWS/PFP instead and wind up in the same position except that he doesn't lose his Ogre.

What happens if A doesn't shield on turn 8? Well, in that case it's a pretty good bet that A is going for wounds, so B can go for the double Antispell you mentioned to hurt A pretty badly.


A:3456789012
--PPWSSWFP
--xDWSSSPFP
B:3456789012
--PPSFWSPFP
--xDPPWSSPFP


If A banks the antispell, on turn 11, he'll have to fire it almost immediately to stop the Permanency attack. If he hits B with it, then he can't bank anything more useful than a shield.

I suppose it's possible that A did something really off the wall like aborted the Delay Effect, but I can't think of anything he could do that would give him that much of an advantage given that he had to repeat his initial S.

[Slartucker]

This second scenario is exactly what I'm talking about. It will end up looking like:

DPPPWSSWFP--x
PSDDWSSSPF--x

DPPPSFWSPFPS-
PSDDPPWSSPFP-

Note that the delayer can't use the antispell straight out due to the defender still being invisible. Anyway, in an antispell vs antispell standoff, using the antispell last is always preferable. What happens here is essentially that the delayer pays 2 life to get a 1 turn head start. (1 life if he stabs on the second antispell.)

Note however that the first SPFP is actually useless -- there are no spells castable by the delayer the turn after he banks antispell anyway, thanks to that WFP. So the defender could instead try to summon another ogre. However, the lack of the first antispell allows the delayer to shoot a missile and stab, knocking out the second ogre the turn of the second antispell (paying 2 life again). And then, because there s no threat on the defender's LH, the delayer can wait for a better chance to blow his own antispell:

DPPPWSSWFPS-
PSDDWSSSPFP>

DPPPSFWSPSFWW
PSDDPPWSSPFPS

The delayer can still use his antispell right away, but it will cost 4 life instead of 1-2... not so hot.

If he saves it, the defender, as depicted here, can go on with the perm/charm/troll threat while waving his LH like mad. If he gets lucky, he'll counterspell the same turn the antispell is used, and come out way ahead. But if he guesses wrong, he'll immediately be antispelled, and then has to deal with the delayer's own uninterrupted attack.

Note especially that the defender is vulnerable the turn perm would complete; a disruption then prevents a useful perm and makes a troll easy fodder for PSDD. My own take would be:

DPPPWSSWFPS-WWS
PSDDWSSSPFP>DPP

DPPPSFWSPSFWW
PSDDPPWSSPFPS

The counter prevents charm (or troll, on PSF) while the amnesia makes useful follow-ups to perm unlikely, by letting the delayer know ahead of time when his banked antispell can be safely fired. The perm route at first seems more flexible, and allows something like this:

DPPPWSSWFPS-WWS
PSDDWSSSPFP>DPP

DPPPSFWSPSFWWWPP
PSDDPPWSSPFPSDWWP

Which can earn a guaranteed permanent protection. (The LH P is necessary to prevent the antispell from hitting the turn after the perm.) Unfortunately, this is a mere trinket when one is walking into TaliFOD:

DPPPWSSWFPS-WWSPFPDWPP
PSDDWSSSPFP>DPPWPFSSSD

DPPPSFWSPSFWWWPP--
PSDDPPWSSPFPSDWW--

In short, while the defender certainly has creative options to wiggle into, I can't find any way to punch holes in the delay weave used with WFP.

[awall]

Okay, you've convinced me about the Ogre/Invis strategy not really working. I tried playing with a few other moves for the invis player (charming instead of bringing the second ogre, going for Fear/Invis/Delay himself), but none of them really work that well.

A few posts back, you mentioned that DS/PS loses to DP/PS. Why is that?

[Slartucker]

The short answer is that in this particular matchup amnesia has more oomph behind it than maladroit does. Here's a longer answer that I wrote last year; it's not really complete, but it may give some more detail:

Each player has two real options here: DPP/PSD or DPS/PSD, and DSF/PSD with the Maladroit targetted at either player. Other moves, including those using PSF, DSW, or DSP, are inferior to the ones above in pretty much every case.

Looking at the possible results, the DS player is basically screwed if he's hit with either disruption.

* If both DPP and DSF land, DP goes Invis, and DS can't defend it beyond throwing a weak, last minute para:

DPPWS
PSDWSD

DSFFF
PSDD

* If DS hits himself with Maladroit but DP dummies Amnesia, DP has two charms lined up while DS has the choice of a single charm or a goblin. The best he can do to defend still leaves his opponent with an ogre. (DS can sneak a goblin in, but risks being charmed (and then having the goblin charmed, or the ogre summoned anyway) to do it, and comes out behind regardless.)

DPSFW
PSDF

DSFF
PSDF

* If DS hits DP with Maladroit, but DP dummies Amnesia, it's a little better for DS, but not much.

* The best case scenario for DS is that the two disruptions bounce:

DPP
PSD

DSF
PSD

The resulting decision point is somewhat ambiguous. Note the potential for Invis Delay here.

DP should probably dummy Amnesia to avoid this more ambiguous possibility. However, regardless of what he does, there are no outcomes of DP vs. DS that favor DS outright, while there are several that favor DP. Therefore, DP/PS is the better tack to take in D/P vs. D/P.

[awall]

Okay, here's something I've wanted to ask about for a while, but since it concerns a game in progress, I'm a bit hesitant to discuss it here. However, we're enough past the relevant point that I think it's safe to bring it up.

games.ravenblack.net/warlocks?num=57516


Rycchus
Turn:01234567890123
--LH:BPSDDPPSFWPS-P
--RH:BDPPPSFWPFDP-W

awall
Turn:01234567890123
--LH:BDPPPWSSWWPSDD
--RH:BPSDDWSSSPFP>>


(The game is about 10 turns past here right now, but the first 13 turns or so are what I want to talk about.)

Rycchus and I both opened DP/PS. On turn 5, I went for Delay Invis and he went for the Amnesia/Ogre route. However, instead of going invis himself, he used his P hand to summon another ogre, so I had two of them to deal with upon turning visible again. I aborted the LH:Antispell for Protection so I wouldn't get pummeled the turn I banked. On turn 12, I hit one of his Ogres with missile and stab to kill it and fired off my Antispell to ensure that my charm would land the next turn (I also got hit with Amnesia, which explains the repeated stab on turn 13). By the end of turn 13, I was up an ogre and down 3 health, as well as a bit of initiative due to my repeated stab. I think the situation slightly favored me, but not by much.

The thing is, I don't see any obviously bad plays I made. The most questionable thing I did was the stab on turn 12; I arguably could have let both Ogres live (I wasn't going to take damage because I still had protection) and told the ogre I charmed to attack the other one. This would have been risky though, because if he'd guessed correctly which Ogre I would charm, he could have shielded his own and then we'd both have been in about equal positions except he'd have been up 3 life. I could even have possibly gotten away with not throwing the antispell either and hoping he protected the wrong one - in which case he would have been in very hot water - but I'd have been in a lot of trouble if my charm had bounced.

Is double ogre a reasonable answer to Delay Invis, or is there something else I should have done to come out further ahead?

[Dubber]

Today's standard seeming dual DPPPwssPFPx/PSDDwssSPFP double delayed antispell is easily blocked with a DPPx/PSFF which disrupts the Delay.

The trouble I'm having with this variant is figuring out what to do against the probable Antispell->Blindness->[Perm or Charm] from my opponent.

Counter the anti & summon a troll to protect seems okay to me, but hasn't played out well.

What would you do?