Opening D/P vs S/W

[jes]

I've been wondering if S/W is as good as D/P or not. Most of the time that I open with S/W against a D/P, I usually lose. Anyone have any comments on this?

[awall]

Yay, somebody else actually registered!

From everything I've heard, S/W is supposed to be as good as D/P, although not necessarily better. However, it requires a bit more skill to play. DP/PS is hard to go wrong with, whereas S/W can screw you up badly if you misplay it. Or at least that's what I'm supposed to say according to what I've heard from better players. I really don't know this opening well enough to give a definitive answer on it, but I'll do my best.

As far as my own personal experience goes, I've generally adopted a SWD/WWP line and it's served me fairly well. If they go PSF, you come out ahead - the best they can really do is summon an ogre and go invisible a turn later. You meanwhile counter the Ogre and follow them into invis two turns later. When the dust settles, you should come out ahead. DPP/PSD is worse, because you can't stop them from going invisible and banking an antispell. You can bank one too, but you're a turn behind them, which I think is bad for you.

I suppose SWD/WWW would stop PSD (you can use your right hand to counter them when they try to go invisible and then it should be easy to prevent Delay Effect) but it's weaker against PSF, because it leaves you with no real defense against an Ogre other than WWP, and even that doesn't come out until the Ogre's already hit you once.

SWW/WWP gives you counters against both the Ogre and the Delay Invis, but it puts you squarely on the defensive, and I don't like being in that position.

SWW/WWS seems like another viable option. If they do PSD, you've got either counterspell or fear ready to discourage them from trying for invis. Charm seems more likely, although you'll probably want to prepare Fear just in case they go for invis after all (besides, it'll keep their Charm hand from continuing to Lightning Bolt or Blindness) - SWWS/WWSW seems like the safest play to me. If they do PSF instead, you can counter the Ogre and use Fear to keep their other hand from continuing to Charm. If they go for a second Ogre instead... um... I'm not sure what happens there. Maybe you wind up trying to counter that too, I don't know.


If your opponent opens with DS/PS instead, the situation might change. I opted for SWW/WWP against it, figuring that in the worst case I'd be maladroit and do S/S to counter your Charm or Ogre while preparing my own Charm/Ogre on the other hand. This seemed to work out okay, but I think I got lucky. If the DS player continues to DSFW, he's got some interesting lines - DSFWP/PSDFF both protects the Goblin and threatens a Bolt, while dummying the charm into DSFW/PSDP gives a bit more flexibility.

I'm not sure what other lines might be more useful against S/W, and since it's late, I'm not in the best shape to think about it now. I hope there's at least something useful in my ramblings above... and more importantly, I hope what I came up with was at least marginally accurate. Remember, I'm fairly new at this opening, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

[Dubber]

S/W is not nearly effective as S/S or S/D against D/P in Maladroit

Mainly because S/W is too defensive. Look at the options in turn 3 for the S/W player:

SWD or SFW (unless feinting S[DorP]x - which is just insane)
WWS or WFP or WPx

What is lined up against these?
A guaranteed Disruption cast on 3 or 4 or both or a feint into sequential PSDFs which is likely worse.

Best case, played right, the S/W player is a goblin up and a WFP cast with minimal initiative.

(of course my attitude *could* be why Taliesin always beat me handily in his prime)

[Slartucker]

Hogwash, Dubber. You are assuming that any option that doesn't contain a spell cast turn 3 is not an option. That's a HORRIBLE assumption to make in this game. Almost always, the best moves involve casting less than the maximum number of spells available to you.

The orthodox S/W open, as developed by Taliesin, is SWW/WWP. This is a particularly good open against DSF/PSD and it has no glaring weakness against DPP/PSD. DSF/PWP is a problem, though one with other solutions from S/W.

What exactly is the advantage S/S has? It's certainly not two goblins against an undefended charm!

[taliesin]

So it turns out it's much easier to tempt me back to forum contribution with silly assertions than it is with open-ended questions...

Dubber, you nutter, I thought you'd have understood Maladroit opening theory a lot better than this by now.

Playing a non-P opening against D/P, you need a counter available on turn 4. This is because you may have to face either PSFW or PSDF, and a disruption which isn't PSDx on turn 4 won't cut it. You can't guarantee that a disruption of yours will break it on turn 3 because D/P can self-Maladroit.

In fact, it's usually good to assume that you'll be Maladroit yourself on turn 4, as D/P can swallow pretty much anything you throw at him and take it into his spellflow without suffering a great deal of harm.

With this in mind, let's go back and look at those openings.

S/S, vs D/P Maladroit:
SWDS
SWWS
Functional, gives a DSF threat. However, the first S on the RH isn't adding anything at all. Two Fears on the same turn aren't a credible threat.

SP is of course quite useless, SFW produces a goblin that dies either to a missile, or, if shielded, is stolen while you're Maladroit next turn (you can't summon a goblin and shield it on turn 3 and counter it on turn 4), and SS and SD aren't worth much either.

Against Amnesia instead of Maladroit, S/S must have SWP on one hand to be sure of a counter, and again the initial S is worthless.

S/S is IMO the weakest of the three openings you mentioned.

D/S, vs D/P Maladroit:
DPPS
SWWS
This opening has some small dummying potential, as DPP all but forces them to self-Maladroit to avoid the Invis threat. Again though the SWD threat is largely redundant with the DPP available.

You can also achieve the same position as S/S:
DWWS
SWDS
This gives D/S clear advantages in terms of its options over S/S - it can do everything that S/S can do, and more.

Against Amnesia it's liable to be more interesting. D/S is an opening with some potential.

S/W, vs D/P Maladroit:

1)
WWWS
SWDS

2)
WWPS
SWWS

3)
WWPS
SWDS

4)
WWSx
SWWS

5)
WWWS
SFSS
S/W has a ton of extra options that the others don't. 1) is the route that S/S has to take against D/P Maladroit. 2) ends up in the same position as a vanilla DPP/SWW response, but doesn't take the missile and has protection until turn 5. 3) is legitimate as if the Fear and Maladroit cross over and S/W lacks a counter for turn 4, the only spells D/P can complete on turn 4 are summonings, and they're facing an incoming PSx and a Protection - while if the Fear and Maladroit cancel, S/W has a WWPP counter for turn 4. 4) can kill two spells back to back stone dead with its counters and offers a reasonable spellflow going forwards. 5) isn't super-powerful, but offers a feasible attack on Maladroit that, from an SF/WW opening, gives extra options against Amnesia and the DSF/PWP variation.

While S/W doesn't have quite as many options against D/P Amnesia as against Maladroit, it does have everything S/S has available and at least as many options as D/S does. It's vastly more potent than S/S, and much more safely capable against DSF/PSx than D/S, though it gets more blurry against some of D/P's other options.

[Dubber]

Muahaha, my gambit worked then. Welcome to the forums, Taliesin
Sorry I didn't see your reply until now.