|
Post by Slartucker on Jun 30, 2007 12:48:41 GMT -5
Here's an open question: how do you deal with a well-defended ogre, troll, or giant? If your opponent isn't giving you any openings to get PSDD through unblocked, if your WPFDs are met with counterspells, how do you deal with it? Most people at least know that ignoring it is fatal, but what tactics do you use do get around your opponent's defenses?
This is a critical question, because a monster that you can't get rid of can easily decide the game. Indeed, Taliesin attributed some of his early success to his superior monster caretaking. In planning moves, I often treat the possibility of a PSFW that I don't have a guaranteed answer to similarly to the possibility of FOD; they both put me on the defensive and can easily make me lose the game.
|
|
|
Post by Rycchus on Jun 30, 2007 19:09:07 GMT -5
At the same time as all the usual measures, I fling missiles at it. Sometimes it dies from missile, other times it gets down to 1 health and you can finish it with a Time-Stopped stab or missile.
If things are getting really desperate I'd think of dispelling (especially nice with elementals).
On the "prevention is better than cure" front, I'd usually counter a summon over something else if I had a choice. People often underestimate how powerful monsters would be.
Well anyway that's my view...
Edit: I feel I should point out, after the rest of this discussion, that I kind of felt WWPs WFPs and staggered PSDs were a given. Slarty did imply this in the opening post, and that's what I meant above by "the usual measures".
|
|
|
Post by awall on Jul 2, 2007 3:42:44 GMT -5
In planning moves, I often treat the possibility of a PSFW that I don't have a guaranteed answer to similarly to the possibility of FOD; they both put me on the defensive and can easily make me lose the game. I agree; I'm realizing more and more as time goes on just how scary Ogres can be. Countering the Ogre is the safest answer, although I find that timing a Charm for one turn after it's summoned can sometimes be a good defense, if the opponent doesn't a counterspell ready on the other hand. If he's got a disruption, it's iffy; he could guess right and protect the Ogre, but if he gets charmed and the Ogre disrupted, you may have an opening to grab it without taking too much damage. It really depends on the situation, I think. Once an Ogre is on the board, it's a bit worse for the defender. Something like WWPS/PPSD seems like the safest play, as it protects you from damage while giving you two chances to charm the ogre or your opponent. If all else fails, you can try to kill the ogre with missile damage, as there's a good chance that at least one of your missiles will land. Unfortunately, this route gets wrecked horribly by Fear, and can be stopped by any other disruption plus a counter. The other problem with the Twin Charm defense is that your opponent can prepare his own charms and you get into a game of Pass the Ogre. I really don't know how this plays out, although I've been meaning to start a thread on it for a while now. What's the best thing to do (for both players) in a situation like xPS/xWP vs. xPS/PSD when the first player has an Ogre? WFP is probably the fastest way to remove the Ogre, and it's hard to prevent, but it guarantees that you'll take two damage on the turn of the Wounds, unless you've set up something like WWPxx/PPWFP. Actually, that doesn't seem half bad if your left hand continues to PSD, because they need two counters to stop both Wounds and Charm, and your can dummy the latter into PSDF/WFPS if necessary. A disruption the turn of the F could ruin you though, so you may need to opt for LH:WWPP instead, which allows your opponent to keep the pressure up if they manage to counter WFP.. Invisibility also seems like a decent answer, although you'll take at least 2, quite possibly 4 damage going in. You're very likely to off the Ogre. At the very least you can guarantee a Dispel, but you can also try for various and sundry things involving wounds or charms. Unfortunately, none of these really touch your opponent's spellflow, so I'd be afraid of eating a Lightning Bolt or letting him summon again or something similarly bad. Hitting your opponent with Antispell while preparing Charm on your other hand might work. I'm also curious how multiple monsters work. Two Ogres actually seems worse that just one, because you can't reliably defend them both. Meanwhile, a single shield will still prevent all the damage. It's not always a bad idea, especially if you can hit him with Maladroit, but it seems much riskier. I really don't have any good ideas for how to defend against trolls and giants when you can't land Charm. WPFD might help, otherwise you may have to resort to WWPPWS/xxxxWS and throw the invis at the monster.
|
|
|
Post by toyotami on Jul 5, 2007 9:53:26 GMT -5
Ahhh the ogre, i think old Taliesin and slartucker both busted me a few times with that. And i KNOW i got smashed by a para chain + giant back in the day. Obvious advice for the newer players is to stay away from para chains when defending a monster, obviously.
Secondly, against an ogre, wwps/ppsd is a pretty nice flow to get going...ive always found peppering a way to go if you cant slide in a cause heavy. Peppering is mixing up the missiles you send them and largely casting Charm person rather than charm monster. Bonk your opponent a few times and cast a few heals on yourself and when your opponent sees he is actually getting further away from you while he has the ogre, he might take a risk...this is gut playing. The old pepper.
Also try not to take 2 damage for any reason, including getting rid of the ogre...he isnt worth it...you play around him. Hmm this is more philosophical than backed up by code...i will get better on these forums in the future...
Last thought...when you have an ogre, what is the best way to play...? Defend it in a slow bloodletting of the opponents bad guesses (yes Taliesin, that is you) or springing off the guy into another varied attack? Personally i hate playing the defend my little ogre strain...but is that just me?
|
|
|
Post by Slartucker on Jul 5, 2007 10:52:19 GMT -5
Also try not to take 2 damage for any reason, including getting rid of the ogre...he isnt worth it...you play around him. Gahhh! This is just egregiously wrong. Well, I suppose it's accurate if you're at 2 health... but really, the ogre is absolutely worth 2 health. If you have a chance to get rid of him for 2 health without losing initiative, say with WFP or PDWP, you should take it. Obviously you should try to avoid taking damage, and I would probably avoid damage for solutions that only offer you a 50% chance of success -- i.e., staggering PSDs without a WWP opening. But if you attempt to "play around" an ogre you'll take far more than 2 damage, whether in damage to your health or your initiative.
|
|
|
Post by jes on Jul 5, 2007 15:08:40 GMT -5
If you cast an enchantment on a monster at the same time as remove enchantment, shouldn't that still keep the monster from attacking? games.ravenblack.net/warlocks?num=58043&full=1Turn 32 Dubber waves his left hand. Dubber proffers the palm of his right hand. Dubber casts Summon Giant at himself. Dubber casts Cause Light Wounds at briana. briana wiggles the fingers of his left hand. briana proffers the palm of his right hand. briana casts Maladroitness at the monster Dubber is summoning with his left hand. briana casts Remove Enchantment at the monster Dubber is summoning with his left hand. Big Giant is summoned to serve Dubber. Big Giant starts to lose coordination. Big Giant is hit by Remove Enchantment, and starts coming apart at the seams. Wounds appear all over briana's body! Ugly Goblin attacks briana for 1 damage. Big Giant attacks briana for 4 damage. Big Giant dies.
|
|
|
Post by awall on Jul 6, 2007 0:46:28 GMT -5
If you cast an enchantment on a monster at the same time as remove enchantment, shouldn't that still keep the monster from attacking? Nope. Because Remove Enchantment removes the enchantment . Yes, it's weird, but PDWP and cDPW both remove all effects before monsters attack, but don't kill the monster until after it attacks. For the same reason, you can force monster damage through with Dispel Magic, because the dispel prevents their shield (or a mindspell at the monster) but doesn't kill the monster until after it's attacked.
|
|
|
Post by freesoul on Jul 6, 2007 13:18:25 GMT -5
I guess i like to look at it in the way that the remove enchant and dispell disrupts all spells, and where monters don't fully implode or "come apart at the seams" for a couple minutes... just enough time to attack
|
|
|
Post by Slartucker on Jul 6, 2007 13:41:18 GMT -5
I'm also curious how multiple monsters work. Two Ogres actually seems worse that just one, because you can't reliably defend them both. Meanwhile, a single shield will still prevent all the damage. It's not always a bad idea, especially if you can hit him with Maladroit, but it seems much riskier. I dislike having multiple strong monsters and will typically off one the turn before charm can be fired. However, if you can manage to prevent your opponent from getting to that point, they do exert extra pressure. Additionally, WFP and PDWP (and PPws, etc.) are not answers to two ogres. So really two monsters just focuses pressure even more on the possibility of getting to and executing PSDD. If you have enough initiative going into the second ogre to be able to prevent that with soft control, they can be useful.
|
|
|
Post by toyotami on Jul 7, 2007 22:06:22 GMT -5
I don't know about egregriously wrong... i'd like to see statistics of what the average damage an ogre does to a guy is before he is pulped...I've seen them come and go without effecting the game too much...in fact, if i see my oppoent with PS and me without a W in sight, i am always pleased to see them going for the ogre...i'd rather combat a beastie than lose initiative...I suppose a good warlock would be one that could play both styles (that is, monster mash and initiative keeping enchantments.)
|
|
|
Post by Slartucker on Jul 7, 2007 22:55:09 GMT -5
But how in the world do you combat a beastie without losing initiative? Against a strong user of monsters, it simply can't be done. Yes, an ogre in the hands of a weak player is not much of a threat, but neither is any other spell.
|
|
|
Post by Rycchus on Jul 10, 2007 18:35:54 GMT -5
If you cast an enchantment on a monster at the same time as remove enchantment, shouldn't that still keep the monster from attacking? Nope. Because Remove Enchantment removes the enchantment . Yes, it's weird, but PDWP and cDPW both remove all effects before monsters attack, but don't kill the monster until after it attacks. For the same reason, you can force monster damage through with Dispel Magic, because the dispel prevents their shield (or a mindspell at the monster) but doesn't kill the monster until after it's attacked. Apart from PSDD of course. PDWP doesn't work on that. I don't know about egregriously wrong... i'd like to see statistics of what the average damage an ogre does to a guy is before he is pulped...I've seen them come and go without effecting the game too much...in fact, if i see my oppoent with PS and me without a W in sight, i am always pleased to see them going for the ogre...i'd rather combat a beastie than lose initiative...I suppose a good warlock would be one that could play both styles (that is, monster mash and initiative keeping enchantments.) Toyo, weren't you talking about losing damage not initiative? I'd take two or three damage to keep/get an ogre, and up to at least six for a giant. And similarly it's worth taking the damage to get shot of your opponent's monsters. They'll do much more damage to your initiative and your health in the long term.
|
|
lokiv
Ronin Warlock
Posts: 13
|
Post by lokiv on Jul 11, 2007 1:05:57 GMT -5
Letting your opponent get a monster, let alone a 'well-defended' monster is a sign that you're probably not the better warlock in the duel. That said, it's often happened to me and what they usually don't expect is disabling spells aimed at the monster itself. Note: I'm not claiming that's a GOOD plan by any means. My real plan is two paragraphs down. But how in the world do you combat a beastie without losing initiative? Against a strong user of monsters, it simply can't be done. Yes, an ogre in the hands of a weak player is not much of a threat, but neither is any other spell. Very true. If your opponent concerns himself with a futile defense against say paralysis, confusion, fear (I forget what amnesia does to a monster) then it may allow you to confuse him by not technically confusing him... I mean it probably won't but maybe... Whatever you do, I just can't recommend stabbing it unless the monster is near death. I try to summon my own and protect it with a shield while it battles if I'm not too low on life. I dislike losing initiative for any reason, but I play in a very aggressive manner.
|
|
taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
|
Post by taliesin on Jul 11, 2007 11:34:40 GMT -5
I don't know about egregriously wrong... i'd like to see statistics of what the average damage an ogre does to a guy is before he is pulped...I've seen them come and go without effecting the game too much...in fact, if i see my oppoent with PS and me without a W in sight, i am always pleased to see them going for the ogre...i'd rather combat a beastie than lose initiative...I suppose a good warlock would be one that could play both styles (that is, monster mash and initiative keeping enchantments.) I usually rate an ogre as worth about 4-5 damage. It depends on the circumstances, as obviously summoning an ogre into a charm or near the game end when both sides are relatively low on health isn't as valuable. However, ogres have won me a great many games. Some have done 8 or 10 damage over the course of a game, but more frequently they cause people to try shielding every turn, and this of course opens them up to all sorts of things they could otherwise defend: double charms, FoD attacks, maladroit/summon/WFP riffs... One of the reasons you lost so much against me, Toyotami, was that you didn't always fully understand the necessity of taking damage now to avoid taking damage later. Beasties are initiative in the bank. If your opponent has a monster, and you do not have a high-percentage way of neutralising that monster or killing your opponent, you are the one behind on initiative. And of course, this means you need to protect that monster tenaciously. Most of the time, your defensive opponent, unable to respond as flexibly to the threat of dummying, will eventually open up some chink that allows you onto the attack, and once you're on the attack and you have a monster threatening two or more damage every turn, the game can be over remarkably quickly. Consider the consequences of each Charm and Maladroit that land - these are now suddenly damage spells. Risking a P when charmed against a monster will leave you unable to stop Lightning without a horrid clap, and when you're so strongly on the attack you ought to push for damage unless your own position is very shaky. Using your precious disruptions to keep monsters off isn't terribly good strategy either. This forces you further and further onto the defensive, as you use three-gesture spells to do the work of a one-gesture spell, and you risk being severely overwhelmed. A well-defended monster is hard to defeat. Poorly defended monsters can be sniped at with missiles, but the craftier warlocks will shield their monsters much of the time. WWP is one of the most useful spells here, as is PSDx. WPFD and WFP have a certain value also, but will leak initiative. Summoning your own monster has a certain wild-card value, especially a goblin out of Maladroit which will prevent them shielding their monster and let you attack it - however, if you both have shielded monsters, the game becomes gambling-heavy quickly. Invis from Protection is a last-ditch stop-gap against really big stuff, and Blindness can be used similarly, but both of these will leave you very much behind on initiative.
|
|
|
Post by toyotami on Jul 11, 2007 18:54:42 GMT -5
I agree with the back foot monster walkover...Brianna recently came close to beating me with a ogre and i took 4 damage before dispensing it. She brought that ogre in after i had launched a party attack and hit her for 7 damage or so. At this point i was poorly prepared to defend the monster.
In an evenly matched battle where an opponent can bring up Protection, i still doubt the overall power of the ogre. The W it leaves you with leaves little offense and places you in caretaker mode.
That said, as i discovered in my recent FoD defeat by Reds, a monster is the ultimate insurance against that nasty, especially if the oppoents health is lower than say 8. In the end, i use gobs as niggly attack-mongrels, but again, i would rather protect my 1 hit point, than their little green arses.
|
|