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Post by Citanest on Jan 11, 2009 11:55:15 GMT -5
An idea for a melee variant (let me know if it's already been done);
Survivor Series
A 4 man melee that represents 2 separate duels happening simultaneously (i.e. two 1vs1 battles). No surrender, play to the death.
The first player to win his battle waits for the other battle to finish, only allowed to target spells at himself during this time. The waiting warlock CAN be targeted by others.
When the second battle has a death, the 2 remaining warlocks can then start targeting each other.
Last warlock alive is the winner.
Supplemental Rules:
1) Environment Changing Spells: Although you cannot target warlocks you are not engaged with, storms and elementals are still legal and will damage everyone
2) Targetting: While waiting for his second duel to start, the Warlock may only target himself or Nobody. The turn following the conclusion of the other battle, he can target the new warlock. A warlock waiting CAN be targeted by others, but the warlock must still be alive for the start of the second battle. If he is killed prematurely, the killer forfeits and his first opponent would be the overall winner. It's a draw if both Warlocks are responsible for a premature kill. (This allows some pressure to be kept on the waiting warlock, and keeps Disease and Poison a gamble.)
3) Paralysis: You can only make 5 F gestures consecutively (if manipulated into making another F gesture, Paralysis must be targetted at noone). (Otherwise a waiting warlock will always prepare a para chain.)
4) Monsters: During a duel, your monster can only attack your opponent and his monsters Monsters that attacked your first opponent or his monsters may not attack your new opponent or their monsters. A Warlock may target a dead opponents monster(s). Any monster may attack an elemental.
(Coming into the second game with a ready made monster would probably be too powerful. )
5) FoD Maybe FoD should be banned, to prevent MikeEB's cycling tactic? Not sure.
Good idea? Awful idea? Have I missed any obvious flaws? I'm aiming for the rules to give a waiting warlock a distinct advantage, time to recover etc, but not one so great that the final battle is a foregone conclusion. I'm sure some more rule tweaks are needed.
Reply to this thread if you fancy a go.
It's a ... shame we can't do 8-man melees, a 3 round survivor series with 2 from each clan would be awesome.
<EDITED IN RESPONSE TO SUGGESTIONS>
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Post by Slartucker on Jan 11, 2009 12:10:56 GMT -5
Sounds pretty cool. Some not-so-obvious flaws:
What happens if the waiting warlock has 2 hp and both playing warlocks hit him with a missile? I know it will never happen... I suppose that would just be double surrender and an ignominious end to the battle.
Monsters can, presumably, attack themselves, or other monsters controlled by their owner, right?
Can a waiting warlock cast a different spell, but targetted at Nobody? The targetting rules imply no, but the paralysis rule implies yes.
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Post by mikeEB on Jan 11, 2009 14:33:05 GMT -5
I think a waiting warlock should be able to use a few other spells, namely shield (because they will use P's in the meantime), counterspell (for self-defense) and protection (ditto) and possibly mirror(sneaky). The benefits of starting with a protection are rather minimal.
On the other hand, starting with a paralysis isn't really that important; you could instead cycle through PWPWPWP or DFPWPDFPWP and make the opponent start inside a FOD defense.
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Post by Citanest on Jan 11, 2009 14:38:20 GMT -5
What happens if the waiting warlock has 2 hp and both playing warlocks hit him with a missile? I know it will never happen... I suppose that would just be double surrender and an ignominious end to the battle. Yep. It is unlikely as you say- the Warlock would be weak enough to warrant focusing all attention on the as-yet-still-alive current opponent. Yep. Ah, good point - that is ambiguous. Bloody Paralysis. Probably best to say that spells cast at Nobody are OK. Another addtion for the Monsters rules- if the dead opponent's monster is still alive, the waiting warlock can target it.
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Post by Citanest on Jan 11, 2009 14:40:14 GMT -5
I think a waiting warlock should be able to use a few other spells, namely shield (because they will use P's in the meantime), counterspell (for self-defense) and protection (ditto) and possibly mirror(sneaky). The benefits of starting with a protection are rather minimal. Good point- those spells should be allowed (obviously only self-targetted though).
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Post by mikeEB on Jan 11, 2009 15:27:27 GMT -5
A few more corner cases: The surviving warlock of Battle 1 kills his opponent with a stab the turn he gets hit by a permanent amnesia. He then suicides.
Ditto except that a warlock from Battle 2 casts the permanent amnesia.
The surviving warlock of Battle 1 surrenders (either by accident or as a result of a charm from someone in Battle 2).
Battle 1 ends in a double death.
============= RE:FoD cycle - If you ban FoD, I just go PSDSPSDS/DSPSDSPS and hit the survivor from the other battle with an immediate permablind weave or charm into disease. Or I can perm-invis myself and/or bank a time stop. The moral here is not that we should get rid of FoD, but that the two fighting warlocks can't ignore the third and expect to win.
Incidentally, the one way a warlock from Battle 2 can win their side and still keep initiative in the final fight is to win with by para-FoD or para-monster. Which you've banned.
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Post by boomfrog on Jan 11, 2009 23:30:32 GMT -5
First the ban on preparing a F chain is silly, there are as pointed out numerous different ways to prepare, I think that rules can be lifted, and F chain is no more powerful then many other possibilities. Personally I think I would spend most of my time as the early winner defending myself and buffing myself with resists, permanency, delay or monsters and cure spells.
Currently after battle 1 ends then this is mostly a 3 way melee, except one person cannot attack and cannot die all the way. He will probably spend most of his time counterspelling himself until he can turn invisible or cast haste. It's be interesting to see how it works in practice. I don't think he has very much advantage actually.
I'm confused about monsters. Battle 1 ends, and battle two is still going. Warlocks in 2 cannot have their monsters attack the winner of 1 or his monsters, and vice versa? And they cannot charm each others monsters either? But they can charm each other. I don't think you need to worry about the advantage warlocks have going into the 2nd battle. There are plenty of chances for everyone to effect each other, including a nice dispel magic or storm to get rid of all the beasts.
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Post by saypin on Jan 12, 2009 2:49:43 GMT -5
The waiting warlock
CWWFP CWSSW
and wait?
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Post by ExDeath on Jan 12, 2009 11:49:35 GMT -5
The idea is good, but I'm not sure if I like the waiting warlock being able to wind up huge spells to throw at whoever wins the other duel. It gives whoever finishes first a huge advantage. Plus, the first finisher will likely have more health than the second finisher already anyway. I think both winning warlocks should be forced to submit a turn of -/- (or perhaps P/-) before the new round starts, to clear their chains.
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Post by freesoul on Jan 12, 2009 12:19:11 GMT -5
Banking spells would a huge advantage to the early winner.. but would probably want to bank the time stop instead of the antispell... unless you can predict the winner
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Jan 12, 2009 13:50:47 GMT -5
The idea is good, but I'm not sure if I like the waiting warlock being able to wind up huge spells to throw at whoever wins the other duel. It gives whoever finishes first a huge advantage. Plus, the first finisher will likely have more health than the second finisher already anyway. I think both winning warlocks should be forced to submit a turn of -/- (or perhaps P/-) before the new round starts, to clear their chains. Well, the waiting warlock can be targetted by both active warlocks without being able to target them in return. In theory this allows them to reduce the threat they'll be facing next; in practice I could only see this happening if players were allowed to negotiate or if some standard convention were held to. If, for instance, you and I were battling hard at eight health, and Slarty, waiting on fourteen, was building himself a banked FoD, I think the two of us could readily agree to reduce Slarty to more level terms for a given period in the common interest, and then resume our battle; however, if such communication were forbidden, the chances of either of us taking our attention away from each other even in the common good would be very much slimmer.
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Jan 12, 2009 14:09:42 GMT -5
On reflection, I don't believe that the current rules cover things tightly enough. Obvious remaining loopholes: Banked FoDs, Perm Invis, etc: if the fighting warlocks are not allowed to negotiate, the waiting warlock has a strong chance of building an unassailable position. Perm Amnesia, etc: if the fighting warlocks are allowed to negotiate, they may well decide that theirs is the "real" battle, and co-operate to immobilise the waiting warlock with Perm Amnesia or another Permanent mindspell - which would keep him safely alive for the start of the second battle...
Interesting concept, but I'm not sure if it's viable.
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Post by Slartucker on Jan 12, 2009 16:12:01 GMT -5
Yeah, I have been arriving at a similar conclusion. The concept is great, but you just run into the same problem that can plague any warlocks melee -- players can form alliances against each other and destroy the melee balance. But, unlike a regular melee, there are reasons to do so in this concept.
I think it would work better if the 2 non-waiting warlocks were not allowed to target the waiting warlock at ALL, and vice versa. I would also forbid the waiting warlock from casting ANYTHING. This still allows him to develop a significant advantage by preparing spellflow to unleash whenever the other "battle" finishes.
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Post by vilhazarog on Jan 12, 2009 22:30:15 GMT -5
So the waiting warlock has to just auto take 5 damage to any storms that happen to come out of the other duel?
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Post by Slartucker on Jan 12, 2009 22:56:02 GMT -5
All right: he can cast shield and counterspell, and that's it, then.
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