Following up Charm

[awall]

Another situation I find myself in frequently, and I'm notoriously bad at... Let's say you've just successfully hit with Charm Person. What do you follow up with? There's always the Lightning Bolt option, but unless you've managed to pull off double charm or charm + antispell, there's no way to prevent them from countering the bolt. You could dummy it, but all that does is trade charm-initiative for dummied-bolt-initiative, and I'm not sure which is better. There's also DFW, but the one health you gain doesn't seem to make up for the crappiness of Blindness.

I suppose this situation sort of depends what you (and your opponent) have on your other hand. If you have PS the turn of the charm, you can probably guarantee a protectable ogre. If you have F on the other hand instead, you could try for PSDFP/xxxFF. If they defend the para/FoD threat, I think they leave themselves a bit open to you summoning a Troll. Not sure though, because I haven't worked the matrices out for that situation.

Anyway, I'm probably not the best person to talk because I've botched this situation more times than I can count. Does anybody have a reliable weave for attacking after Charm?

(Of course, my absolute favorite thing to do with charm is PSDFWFDx/xSPFPSDW, but how often do you really get to do that? )

[toyotami]

I think basically hitting with a successful charm means you own the initiative (most of the time), now whaat to do with it? Against a good player, there is not alot you can initially get out of a charm. But this does bring me to a strategy i find i subconsciously play alot these days.

Keep you opponent on W's. As many as you can. W is no threat at all. Keep them on W's and steal kisses with goblins and missiles. So from charm, maybe you go the PSDFFD way, meanwhile your other hand works in a DSF, suddenly they are throwing W's left right and centre. Fake out the lightning bolt with another set of DSF's, head towards FSSDD and the guys throwing W's til he gets impatient and does something stupid. Then you smash him.

[awall]

The problem with Lightning Bolt is that it doesn't dummy particularly well, except into Paralysis. FD is a bad place to start an attack from. It gets slightly better if your opponent spends a turn countering themselves and you dummy, but even that doesn't leave you with much. DFFDF only keeps them in W's if they don't have a disruption handy to stop your second bolt.

[taliesin]

What do you expect from a four-gesture spell? Of course it's not an instant gamewinner, and if you play one-handed of course they can defend everything easily. The Lightning threat keeps them on the back foot while you organise something with your other hand, and that you can dummy the Lightning to retain initiative while they flounder around countering is just gravy. The mistake many people make is to go into healing from a mirrored successful PSDF situation, leaving themselves a little better on health but down on initiative.

My most reliable weave for attacking after charm is another charm, on the other hand. This puppy is one of my most used weaves, and one of the most useful weaves in Warlocks. If the first charm hits, you can usually force a Lightning through.

[awall]

taliesin said:

The mistake many people make is to go into healing from a mirrored successful PSDF situation, leaving themselves a little better on health but down on initiative.

I'll count myself among those who have made it, and Slartucker demonstrated exactly why it was a mistake. However, since I can't always ensure that I have something cooking on the other hand when I hit with Charm, healing is sometimes the only thing that I can guarantee (other than para, which isn't worth much). Maybe I should try continuing DFPS in that case.

What about the case where your opponent has an Ogre? Lightning is hardly an option, as even if it lands, you'll probably have taken a comparable amount of damage in the process. Even if you have two charms, if they've got a good defense you can still wind up on the back foot:

You:
PSDF
xPSDF
Him:
xFFF-
SFWPP-

Is PSDFWFDx/xPSDPSDD worth anything? If they use both the para and the counter on the ogre, you can guarantee that the ogre goes away, but you take at least 5 damage in the process.

[taliesin]

awall said:

taliesin said:

The mistake many people make is to go into healing from a mirrored successful PSDF situation, leaving themselves a little better on health but down on initiative.

I'll count myself among those who have made it, and Slartucker demonstrated exactly why it was a mistake. However, since I can't always ensure that I have something cooking on the other hand when I hit with Charm, healing is sometimes the only thing that I can guarantee (other than para, which isn't worth much). Maybe I should try continuing DFPS in that case.

I was talking about this kind of situation:
Azazel:
PSDFF
WPSD-

Dagon:
PSDFW
WPSD-
where DFF has a bundle of initiative to attack with.

awall said:

What about the case where your opponent has an Ogre?

Then you shield. When monsters are on the board, play changes.

The weave you showed is a crapshoot. If the second player self-paralyses and the first PSDDs the ogre, it's obvious who's in trouble. If the second player paralyses the ogre and is charmed, the ogre can be safely taken off him next round. If the second player guesses right, he ends up in a pretty good position with a ParaFoD threat. Double PSDF is pretty awesome, but so is having a monster.