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Post by awall on Sept 13, 2007 16:43:02 GMT -5
Pardon the title, but as we all know, WWFP and SSFP are pretty darn useless. This is partially because there's always something better to do (WFP is better than WWFP, SFW is better than SSFP), but it's also partially due to the fact that the spells they protect against come out so infrequently. Storms and Elementals are up there with Poison and Haste as spells that don't get used much; in fact, I've never actually even seen an Ice Elemental, and I'd wager that the same could be said of a lot of players here.
I've often wondered why there's a Fireball spell, but no Ice Beam (or whatever the canonical fantasy ice-elemental attack spell is called). What would happen if DFFDD became an Ice spell instead of a Lightning spell? This would actually give SSFP a purpose, as DFFDD follows from PSDF fairly often (although if you have S on the turn of a charm, you're still probably better off going for SWD than for SSFP).
Or maybe SSFP would still be totally useless and the game wouldn't change at all. There are better answers to DFFDD than resistance.
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Derfel
Ronin Warlock
Did I Do That?
Troublemaker
Posts: 283
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Post by Derfel on Sept 13, 2007 17:08:19 GMT -5
Dude... WWFP and SSFP have been so useful to me so many times, I've lost count. Sure, Fire Elementals are more common than their cold cousins, but in a Melee or even in some Friendlies I've played, I've faked the Fear and gone with an elemental, just to watch my opponent(s) flail around protecting themselves. They also clean up monsters well enough too.
Just sayin'.
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Post by awall on Sept 13, 2007 17:24:38 GMT -5
I meant in duels, not melees. Sorry. Yeah, I'll admit that I used both resistances in the one melee game I played, and they won me the game.
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Post by freesoul on Sept 13, 2007 17:54:32 GMT -5
Now I'm not gonna argue in favor of using resistance in duels, since i typically don't use them (and when i have, i've regretted it). However i think there may be times when you could get away with casting some resistance. Perhaps from Invis followed by a storm, since that would be quite unexpected and could catch your opponent unawares. Also, when a person has some resistance, your opponent has to incorporate some additional threats into your moves, which may put them on the defensive. Or the opponent will have to remove your resistance, or add their own.. both should even up the loss of initiative.
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Post by Rycchus on Sept 13, 2007 18:03:07 GMT -5
You don't catch them unawares. Resistances are uncommon enough that if your opponent gets one, you watch for storms.
In fact I would tentatively say that the worst part of resistances is that it makes you likely to cast storms. The clap mostly does more damage to you than the storm does to them. It's like a WDDc except that you've had to cast SSFP or WWFP to get that far. More useful in the endgame, but there's no point in doing something that may give you a better shot in the endgame if it kills you before you get there.
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Post by awall on Sept 13, 2007 18:08:35 GMT -5
However i think there may be times when you could get away with casting some resistance. Sure, there are. But all of the times when you can, there's almost always something else you could do that's better. For example, if you've got enough initiative to get off SSFP, then you've also got enough initiative to land SPFP. Sure, you could do that. You could also do 5 damage to your opponent with a Lightning Bolt (pardon me, Ice Beam ) and that doesn't require your other hand at all.
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Post by freesoul on Sept 13, 2007 18:10:54 GMT -5
Well I was thinking that you'd cast the storm immediately after the resistance... however i do agree that storms aren't great on the initiative. Now I'm not arguing that this is a wise move or anything, just something that could be done for a change of pace... I don't play every game just to win them... sometimes I like to have a little fun and variety
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morzas
Ronin Warlock
Posts: 30
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Post by morzas on Sept 13, 2007 18:29:43 GMT -5
I think a 'Ray of Frost' would be better than an 'Ice Beam', but what gestures would you use to fire it?
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Post by xade on Sept 13, 2007 19:24:52 GMT -5
Toyo made an ice elemental in our current Tourney battle, neither of us had resistances... made me really wish for resistances... One thing I've always wondered, and would prolly make for an interesting varient. What if Lightning *was* negated by SSFP? It would certainly make the time tested PSDFFDD a lot less threatening... Maybe even give fireball a chance to shine.
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Post by toyotami on Sept 13, 2007 19:45:10 GMT -5
Elementals are the way of the future. I used Icies against Vermont and Xade...coming out of invisible they are great for cleaning up monsters, catching opponents with their pants down...equalizing the field with the hope of banging 3 damage to boot.
Ice has its advantage as it is imperceivable while invisible (as opposed to the mirror that would pop up [wait...does mirror hover if untargetted???] Also if things go terribly pear shaped, it can change into a counterspell. Also you can do the sneaky little Dispel attack #wink wink#
That said, i still didn't use any Resistences. Elementals are cool for shock value...resistence futile.
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Post by Dubber on Sept 13, 2007 21:09:47 GMT -5
I think a 'Ray of Frost' would be better than an 'Ice Beam', but what gestures would you use to fire it? Whatever suitably obscene gesture your culture requires? Thumbs for Brits, "the Bird" for 'Mericans, biting knuckles, whatever
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Post by awall on Sept 14, 2007 1:17:35 GMT -5
Elementals are the way of the future. I used Icies against Vermont and Xade...coming out of invisible they are great for cleaning up monsters, catching opponents with their pants down...equalizing the field with the hope of banging 3 damage to boot. Out of invis? I don't see how that works? Sure, it's pretty much guaranteed to go off if you counter yourself your first turn out of Invis, but the elemental doesn't really get you any sort of advantage other than the halfway possibility of 3 damage the turn it comes out, and it costs you a heckuva lot of initiative to summon it. Why not just summon a troll? It costs the same number of gestures, doesn't hurt you, doesn't hurt your spellflow as much, and doesn't give away your spellflow (since not shielding your first turn in Invis gives away that you're not using a standard weave). --- DFFDD. As I said, it'd be a replacement for Lightning Bolt. And I just realized, the "standard" ice spell is "Frost Bolt" ("Blizzard" is pretty common too, but that seems like it'd be more fitting for a spell that hit multiple targets. Maybe WSSc should have been called that, but whatever, "Ice Storm" is fine).
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Post by Slartucker on Sept 14, 2007 1:35:15 GMT -5
Um, Cone of Cold anybody? There's no other choice. Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Finger of Death, and Cure/Cause Light/Heavy Wounds all scream "D&D grimoire".
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Post by xade on Sept 14, 2007 2:05:33 GMT -5
YES! Cone of cold! - 'cept finger of death never worked as good as it does here... ps - When I see a P coming up on the second turn of an invis, it's either an anti-spell, charm, or monster... and if you don't get hit by an anti-spell (normally cause by now, you've made a monster of your own), it's a pretty good bet what that P is going to mean... specially when you can see the final d+missile, or F...
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Sept 14, 2007 6:01:44 GMT -5
That said, i still didn't use any Resistences. Elementals are cool for shock value...resistence futile. For once I'm entirely in agreement with Toyotami. The elemental/counterspell choice of the Ice Elemental is pretty valuable. If your opponent is just embarking on some non-defensive spellflow and an Ice Elemental comes out to play, it can blow a big hole in his plans. I don't use them often, but I have had quite a lot of success with them when I have used them. The problem is of course that the advantage is largely psychological - elementals disadvantage you both equally. Resistances are useful mainly when you've already got an elemental in play. (I did however once successfully use a Resist Cold in a tight end-game when I'd been hit with Amnesia two turns previous to the ice storm on the final move and didn't have a W handy.) Of course, I usually only use them after a Dispel, and there are a limited number of occasions where Dispel is highly valuable. It is worth pointing out that resistance and elemental is exceedingly powerful because Charm Monster is no threat at all - this position is strictly superior to having even a giant or troll. Oh, and there's one other occasion where elementals and resistances can be handy: Haste. You clap the first half-turn to Magic Mirror an incoming disruption on your second half-turn of Haste, and if on the turn after that you're not disrupted or threatened with a mere Charm Person or Paralysis, you can progress all the way to elemental and resistance and gain a serious advantage.
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