Opening SP/WW vs. D/P

[awall]

taliesin said:

It works surprisingly often, particularly against the DSF/PSx line, but only if you know how to handle it; attempting SPFP or summoning against a P opening is usually disasterous.

Antispell is almost comically easy to ruin...

(Not sure where the above one came from, but I'm sure I read it somewhere...)

My only experience with opening SP against D/P was my first game ever; Asgardian summoned an Ogre and it beat me all over with it. Shortly afterward, I read the first quote above, and never really gave in another shot. I always figured that Ogre beat it hands down, but I'm starting to wonder why.


Player A
DP
PS

Player B
SPF
WWP


From here, A has four possible moves: DPP or DPS with the left hand, and PSD or PSF with the right.


DPS-
PSF-

SPFPSD
WWPSDD

Result: Very bad for A

DPS-
PSD-

SPFPS
WWPS-

Result: B gets a slight amount of initiative, although the charm keeps it from being killer.

DPPSDD
PSDPPS

SPFFFFF
WWPPWW

Result: I think this favors B somewhat, not sure.

DPPS
PSFF

SPFF
WWPP

Result: Not great for B, although B can do F/S and para himself to come out decently well. I'd imagine this is the common case, as A will be unlikely to risk any of the other outcomes. However, if B knows that A will do this, he can open with...

DPPS
PSFW

SPSD
WWSW

...which punishes A if he summons the Ogre, or...

DPPS
PSFF

SPSF
WWSW

...which punishes A if he doesn't.

I've thought a bit about lines vs DS/PS and DS/PW, although I don't have time to write them down right now.

Overall, I don't see how this is the incredibly weak opening that it is implied to be. Sure, some outcomes are less than than favorable for the SP player, but what is it that makes it such a bad opening?

[Slartucker]

The line about ruining antispell is from one of my articles on openings.

One major problem, if you are only concerned with D/P, is that the standard D/P open against S/W is no longer DP/PS, it's now DS/PW. There are several sticky decision points involved in that matchup (e.g., DSF or DSW) and it can certainly go either way -- but the ones that are good for S/W get initiative while some of the ones that are good for D/P get FOD. Not really balanced rewards.

[ExDeath]

admin said:

One major problem, if you are only concerned with D/P, is that the standard D/P open against S/W is no longer DP/PS, it's now DS/PW.

Mwahahahaha.

It still makes me giddy that I somehow created a "standard" opening that begins with Finger of Death.

[Slartucker]

After those two months of looping we experienced, I'd say "naseous" may be a better word than "giddy"

Opening DSF/FOD wasn't really new, but you were definitely the first to both see and capitalize on its destructive potential against SW/WW, and you did single-handedly change the strategic landscape, which few other warlocks can say.

[ExDeath]

Ok, this sucks, as I just wrote out a mile-long post and accidentally hit the "back" section of my touchpad. Here it comes again.

I think you missed a few interactions here. First of all, you mentioned SPS/WWS, but what if it goes down like this:

DPS
PSF

SPS
WWS

Oops! I get an ogre. If I guess wrong here, it could be disastrous for me, but this outcome is equally disastrous for you. And even if you put RH P, I'm way up on initiative. This is the underlying problem with x/W in that it doesn't really "do" anything. It waits for a mistake. Against opponents who don't make many mistakes, you're rarely going to be in a winning position until you outplay them later.

Here is actually the most likely outcome (at least, if you were playing me), which you also missed:

DPPS
PSDS

SPFF
WWPP

Now, if you think this might be an ok position for you, look closer. Turns 1 and 2 are moot and we've now reached a reset position with PS/DS vs FF/PP. Needless to say, F-anything and PP-anything are not very good opening moves in a Warlock game when compared to PS and DS. I previously wrote out 5 or 6 different ways this can turn out, but I think everyone already understands why this situation is bad for Player B.

Of course, this is all assuming I know you'll open SP, which of course I won't. I'd be more likely to open with PW/DS as Slartucker said. So, how does that one turn out?

PWPP
DSFW

SPFP
WWSD

This is what I consider the optimal turns 3 and 4 for both players. Almost automatic. My LH P is a shield on my goblin to block your missile. You have to missile it (or me) because all of your hope in this situation rests on completing Maladroit/Amnesia on turn 6 and then sneaking something lucky through on turn 7. You can't summon your own goblin and protect it without breaking up permanency, as shown here:

PWP-PD
DSF-WP

SPFPSD
WWSFW

Terrible spot for you, even worse if you went LH P to protect it. So if we realize the D is optimal, one of two things is likely to happen:

PWP-FFF
DSF-WPP

SPFPSDx
WWSDPPS

Here, you have a 1 in 3 shot of getting whatever spell you choose to go through. I could also paralyze you, although that won't be incredibly effective against a charm person since you're winding up PS on your other hand. Charm Person is the most devastating outcome, but you could also get off an Ogre and permanent Protection. Anything else could cause me a temporary loss of initiative, but that is balanced out by the fact that my goblin will have done 2-3 damage to you, and a para chain should allow me to regain it in a few turns. Lots of possibilities here, but I like my position 70% of the time.

PWP-FPS
DSF-WWS

SPFPSDx
WWSDSFx

I don't think this one is quite as good for you, but it does give you more ways of getting a risky kill. You could go F/F for Disease, W/F for perm-Paralysis, or hedge your bets with W/W for perm-Protection and a goblin if I end up not countering you. In any of these situations, you're taking major goblin damage with no immediate way to stop it other than summoning your own, which (if I don't counter you) will at best cancel out with mine. I suppose P/W isn't too bad here either. Again, lots of possibilities, but unlike scenario A, I have a lot of initiative here so I like this position 75% of the time.

Feel free to correct me or add to my analysis, I'm pretty sure I left some things out that were in my original post.

[Rycchus]

awall, if there's an antispell coming in why on earth would the D/P player go DPS? That shouldn't even be an option. Assuming that the D/P player goes DP/PS and not DS/PW for now, there's no reason to dummy, not with an antispell coming in. What would you get for it? A magic missile. Blocking the anti with an amnesia somehow seems the better option.

[taliesin]

At the time most of the S/W opening theory was developed, the commonest opening against it was DSF/PSx.

SP/WW is pretty horrid against DSF/PSx. It never really got taken seriously as a result. Now most people don't open DSF against S/W it might be worth looking at again, but its weakness against DSF/PSx poisons it as a mainstream line.