Game 60307

[awall]

games.ravenblack.net/warlocks?num=60307&full=1

This is battle 1 of my tournament match vs. Toyotami. There are a few decision points from this battle that I'd sort of like to mention my thoughts on and perhaps get feedback, both from Toyotami and from anybody else who would care to enlighten me on the proper play in these situations.


Toyotami
Turn:0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345
--LH:BDSFFFSSPPFWDWS??-?F W W SFWPPSDF>DFPWDSFWFPWP
--RH:BPSFSSDDFWDPPWS??-?P P S DFPWWPPWPWWWPFD>>PWPF

Awall
Turn:0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345
--LH:BSWWSPPWSWDSFCSPFPPCDPPSDPPSDDWWSWFPWPFSPFPWPP
--RH:BWFPSDDWSSSPPCPWPWWCPSSPSFWPPSDFF-PDPDFPSFWPWP


Turn 4: I'd originally thought that SWWS/WFPS was a fairly solid defense against DS/PS. Apparently I was wrong. As I understand it, SW/WF is the preferred opening against D/P ever since SW/WW went out of style, but how does one handle DS/PS properly with that opening? Do I just have to guess?

Turn 6: I know that if you have P/D the turn before Disease, PD/DF is the standard play. However, if it's SP/xD, then am I correct in that SPP/xDF is just as good? If the right hand gets paralyzed, you can continue to SPPFDx/xDDFPW, finishing Time Stop before your opponent can counter it and curing Disease on the Time Stopped turn. This seems to afford at least as much initiative as the PD response, as you can finish with DP on the time stopped turn and hit with Amnesia on the third turn after Disease, or you can try DF and go into ParaFOD, possibly dummying to Lightning.

Heck, this even works if you don't have D on the other hand; SPPC the turn after Disease allows you to get off Dispel before they can prevent it, although in this case you'll wind up a bit behind on initative.

Turn 12-13: I assume going for the Time Stop rather than the Antispell was the correct play here, as the former was guaranteed whereas attempting the latter could have resulted in me having to bank cw or something equally defensive. On turn 13, I ran into the interesting question of whether I should bank an SPPc or an SPPFD. I opted for the former, because this let me set up the Antispell/PWP combo that I went for. I figured I'd probably get hit with Fear, but I could still guarantee myself Haste that way. Alternatively, I considered going for Antispell/Charm (steal the goblin during the timestopped turn if he summons, charm him otherwise) but that left me with not very much initiative if he cast Fear without summoning, as he did.

Turn 19-24: How the heck does one actually use Haste? There's nothing written about it, and it happens infrequently enough that I don't really have any sort of experience with it. PS-ing into Amnesia was obviously the dumbest thing I could have done, and using the subsequent DPP to free myself rather than hit Toyotami with it was a close second (I was at work and not concentrating on the game). In gerenal, what are some decent weaves out of Haste?

Turn 36: Toyo, what were you thinking with P/W here? You gave me a gigantic opening to go ParaFod here, and the only reason I didn't was because I expected you to notice the possibility and not do W/P again (I expected S/S, which explains the RH:D).

Yeah, the endgame Troll was nice, but it was too little too late. Good game overall, and you very much deserve that first win. Now, here comes Awall's incredible comeback!

[Rycchus]

I'm not in a position to think deeply right now, but here's a bried one:
4. - I believe it's SF/WW not SW/WF that's the adapted S/W opening these days.

[Slartucker]

Turn 4 / Openings
S/W vs D/P -- no, SW/WF is the adapted opening. SF/WW was the line that Taliesin initially advocated. He and I had a lengthy exploration of SF/WW over email, however, and concluded that -- while not a disaster -- it simply favored D/P too much.

Against DS/PS, SW/WF is played much the same way SW/WW is, except that instead of WWP which prevents 2 damage you get WFP causing 2 damage. It has one inferiority, which is that you can't threaten a turn 4 WPP if they don't go through with the maladroit. However, it's to their advantage to complete the maladroit, so that's not a real issue.

The bottom line about SW/Wx against traditional DS/PS and DP/PS is that it's a fairly solid but nonetheless inferior defense. It opens up a lot of room for spellflow analysis so if your positional understanding is better than the D/P players, you can usually come out ahead.

Turn 6
There are lots of good situational disease cures.

Turn 19 / Haste
Haste is easily my favourite spell in the grimoire, because there's so much you can do with it, and because -- even moreso than Invis -- it's so dynamic, so dependent on situational factors.

What hurts Haste? Monsters hurt it a little, but not much, as they are easily charmed. Invis does very little, since you've guaranteed with that double WS that you'll do nothing for the entire Haste. Disruptions are a mixed bag. Amnesia the turn of Haste is quite good, though it doesn't usually become an actual problem for the Haster unless there is a monster or some other threat out. Other disruptions, whether the turn of or on a later turn, are jokes. Fear just doesn't do much, and as for the others, they have a superb counter:

Paralysis. Haste is one of the reasons paralysis is overpowered, though not a big one next to monsters and FOD. While hasted, you can use paralysis defensively AND offensively with 100% accuracy every "turn." That's pretty good. Given the initiative advantage you already have from Haste, that's amazing. If you get a Haste off without being molested at all, you can go into Para/FOD with a minimum of 50/50s (usually just one). If hit with Charm or Para on the clap turn, you get something like:

CF-
CFFF

which precludes a decisive FOD but still lets you grab an ogre or the like, or start a random FOD or second Haste if you already have a monster. If hit with charm or para after the turn of the clap, it will never touch you. Charm and para have no effect on hasted turns (assuming you don't hit yourself with them) since their caster is not submitting orders. Therefore you simply target yourself with para on the third or fifth turn after the clap, the disruptions bounce, and you're a free man. On the fourth turn you can para your opponent; if they block it you para them on the fifth turn (hasted turn) for the same effect, if they para you you para you on the hasted turn to prevent that.

What you can do with Haste really depends on what is in your opponent's spellflow. Unless you are DPPed into Haste, first plan what you need in order to stop their disruptions or offenses, then look at what offenses you can guarantee getting off with the remainder of your initiative.

[Rycchus]

Okay, I must have missed the update on that lil bit then. I think your discussion came after ours.
Thanks Slarty

[Rycchus]

I disagree about amnesia. It's a very strong Haste defense. It completely robs the haster of any initiative they might have gained from Hasting. There aren't many spells that allow for three repeated gestures. Even if you're paralysing, what are you going to do with the other hand? And, turn of the haste amnesia, what good's a triple clap?

[Slartucker]

The problem with mid-haste amnesia, which I did not spell out, is the ease with which para defends it. Amnesia may well be the best defense, it just isn't an open-and-shut winner as with zero hour DPP against blindness.

Zero hour DPP against haste is good, but unless it is backed up by something else, I think the hasted player still gets initiative. The result is more or less the same as the hasted/amnesia'd player getting hit with an antispell the following turn, then getting two free time stops (without the shieldnullifying effect). The DPP hand can't cast anyhting at all until the hasted player has gotten 4 uninterrupted gestures in, so you'd better have something good on your other hand (or on the table). A second amnesia's not helpful -- do the gestures out and see why. Fear and charm are good but can only equalize initiative at best. Antispell's impossible. You can go delay invis but that will get dispelled and you'll lose initiative.

[Rycchus]

I did the gestures for the second amnesia already. You mean the possibility of a fourth clap? Brings Hastey down to 3 uninterruped gestures, and they're down to countering. I wouldn't say that up on initiative.

[Slartucker]

Mirror? Good god no.

DPP.S.D.Dxx
xxD.P.P.PPP

WWCCCDPPSFW
xxCCCFFFFFx

Looks pretty bad for the double DPPer!

[Rycchus]

No, the turn after that.

[Rycchus]

Okay, didn't see your edit.
I don't think you can amnesia them in the hasted turn and then para them the next turn can you?
Couldn't they get at least
P S D DP
D P P PS
CCCDPPSF
CCCFFFFF ?
(I was getting muddled with a different line before, ignore the mirror thing.)

[Slartucker]

You absolutely can amnesia in the hasted turn and para the next turn. However, in this case PSDD bounces the para, which I didn't notice. So what you actually get is:

DPP.S.D.Dxx
xxD.P.P.PSDD

WWCCCDPPSFW
xxCCCFFFFFF

Note that the DPPer can't avert this by switching to para on his left after the first DPP; in that case haster just switches the targets of his own DPP and FFF.

[Rycchus]

So hasted turns are parallel with the turn before but not the turn after?
What happens if the DPPer paras with his other hand? Am I right in thinking the haster is still free to choose his gestures on the hasted turns?

[Slartucker]

Yes, para and charm have no effect on hasted turns if the caster is not hasted. So para instead of 2nd amnesia above would do nothing whatsoever. Actually, it would be worse, as the hastee could again DPP himself to cancel the para, and para his opponent into a half-clap.

See, this is why defending against haste is so hard once it's been cast.

[Rycchus]

Wouldn't an attempt at para and amnesia go
DPP S
xFF F F
WWCCCFC
xxCCCDP
...?


Although it's certainly stronger than I was previously led to believe.

[taliesin]

awall said:

Turn 4: I'd originally thought that SWWS/WFPS was a fairly solid defense against DS/PS. Apparently I was wrong. As I understand it, SW/WF is the preferred opening against D/P ever since SW/WW went out of style, but how does one handle DS/PS properly with that opening? Do I just have to guess?

As has been mentioned, I much prefer SF/WW and have had reasonably good success with it against a range of D/P openings. SF/WW is weaker than D/P, but stronger than SW/WF. The reason we didn't discuss SW/WF much over email, Slarty, was because I don't think it's up to much - the summoning threat is not negated by fear, and you don't have the Protection possibility of a WW opening. It's certainly not the "preferred" opening.

The "preferred" opening of the moment appears to be DP/WW, which is unfortunately quite gambling-heavy - guessing wrong can get you in a lot of bother.

Anyway, I would suggest, given the Fireball threat, that you could have entered SW/SP on turn 5:

awall:
SWWSP
WFPSW

Toyo:
DSFFF
PSFSS
This allows adequate protection against both eventualities, though you are a little behind on initiative.

However, on this occasion you came out ahead in the opening. You ended up with a clean entry to Invis at 10 health to 12.

Turn 6:
Time Stop works fine, yeah.

awall said:

Turn 19-24: How the heck does one actually use Haste? There's nothing written about it, and it happens infrequently enough that I don't really have any sort of experience with it. PS-ing into Amnesia was obviously the dumbest thing I could have done, and using the subsequent DPP to free myself rather than hit Toyotami with it was a close second (I was at work and not concentrating on the game). In gerenal, what are some decent weaves out of Haste?

Para is good, as Slarty explains.
A nasty thing to do to someone planning to hit you with Amnesia the turn after starting Haste is:
CCWSSW
CCWWFP
Amnesia is mirrored here, so cannot be cast safely. Now, if you're hit next turn with any disruption but Amnesia or Maladroit, you finish your weave successfully. Fear - W, P, and you complete. Para and Charm Person don't kick in until the turn after.

Turn 36:
More to the point - turn 38, you could have had a nice clean DPP FoD without all those ugly 50-50s, but you elected to go for DF.

As regards fighting Haste, if you can follow up Amnesia with a second disruption the turn later, while they're still stuck on the clap, you can largely neutralise it. Better still is PDWP meshed for the turn after the DPP - this wrecks Haste utterly.