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Post by psykosis on Apr 17, 2013 19:45:39 GMT -5
None of this is enticing me to want to think about starting back up. Reset to the default rules (Grid 0.1 rules - those which were in place when *I* started) and make everyone really earn their keep You forgot to tell us to get off your lawn. I am fairly confident you are in the minority as far as people who think Grid 0.1 rules are the way to go...
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Post by succat on Apr 17, 2013 23:43:56 GMT -5
I think Dubber misses missiles. Missiles used to really be powerful when they could take over squares, but I think it was MikeEB who made a good argument against that happening. I think something like Rite of Passage could work, but I'd also like to see 'rogue' switchers too on occasion. Main point is to restrict the biggies from switching and wildcarding wherever they please, but I could see giving little players some more mobility. Not like they can do a whole lot anyway with the current implementation that says you need more units on your square than the square you are switching to, but maybe they could at least rile up some other smaller players or something Also, if the game seems to update slower or you see less text in the Yak or Log boxes, it's because I'm trying to come up with new ways (when I have the time) to manage the data useage more efficiently on this new server as I'm on a different hosting plan now with a different company.
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Philoten
Ronin Warlock
I am un-biased in certain matters.
Posts: 34
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Post by Philoten on Apr 19, 2013 9:00:35 GMT -5
pop and I on speed wipes
> popopop whispers: it's still an achievement nonetheless, since there's always people online, and good for them to have gain enough relations with others to, so they don't get opposition
> You whisper to popopop: the grid should be un-wipeable for 24 hours after so it gives everyone a chance to spawn so no one can get cheap speed wipes that are unfair
> popopop whispers: that was what i had thought through in my head about speed wipes
> You whisper to popopop: speed wipes are usually done when no one else is on line so there is no opposition. This makes it fairer by putting a 24-hour delay after the grid is wiped
> popopop whispers: it's never "unfair' > popopop whispers: you might as well say that all my wipes are done while everyone is asleep and discredit me for that. > popopop whispers: that's why your reasoning is flawed > You whisper to popopop: were they speed wipes?
> popopop whispers: no they weren't > popopop whispers: maybe 1? not too sure about that > popopop whispers: but that aside, i don't really care about my wipes.
> You whisper to popopop: well then you get credited for all the non speed wipes... its the speed wipes I have problems with not the legit wipes
> popopop whispers: the thing is, speed wipes are NOT unfair.
> You whisper to popopop: yes they are if you are the only one with the chance to be on and wipe with no opposition it is unfair.
> popopop whispers: for example, billy's speed wipe, though he had no resistance, you could say that the speedwipe was a signal of his mutual trust among others. > popopop whispers: nope. too bad that you guys are asleep. it's unfair to discredit me when i have a different timezone.
> You whisper to popopop: no you cant he was the only one on
> popopop whispers: thought usually con, met, special, banana are here with me. sometimes... > popopop whispers: which "he" are you referring to?
> You whisper to popopop: if you want it fair put a 24 hour delay on it then speed wipe after everyone has spawned then thats fair
Pop i say speed wipes are unfair because if player A is on during one time and PLyer B is on during another BUT PLayer A due to the timezone could never have a chance at a speed wipe as 10 other players are on with them. But PLayer B can have a lot of speed wipes as no one is on with that person due to the time zone.
Put a 24hour delay until the grid can be wiped again that way everyone has a fair chance to spawn on the grid before it can be wiped. THIS IS FAIR.
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Post by Dubber on Apr 22, 2013 7:52:51 GMT -5
Missiles couldn't ever take over squares But they were efficient as doh in expressing displeasure 8)
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Philoten
Ronin Warlock
I am un-biased in certain matters.
Posts: 34
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Post by Philoten on Apr 22, 2013 19:26:10 GMT -5
After reading about missiles and such to me they seemed to be very OP. Maybe if they were toned down a bit they could be re-introduced into 3.0? would be interesting lol long range attacks though they would need a range cap on them i would think.
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Philoten
Ronin Warlock
I am un-biased in certain matters.
Posts: 34
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Post by Philoten on Apr 24, 2013 11:20:42 GMT -5
Okay I have found something out involving polymufs that needs to be corrected. When control a polymuf if another player and I wish to attack myself with that square. I get the message > You cannot attack yourself at [sq #] this should be corrected as it is not your square attacking you only you commanding a square to attack you. Which is a viable strategy.
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Post by CaliLove on Apr 24, 2013 16:55:02 GMT -5
Missles are a feature that I too, miss. From Io's Missile Services, to the only reason i was actually able to conquer the Grid when I did. Though, now there are signifigantly more units per average gridder than there were while missiles were around, so that would obviously be needed to be taken into account.
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Post by psykosis on Apr 24, 2013 17:50:55 GMT -5
My 2-cents on some of these topics:
Speed Wipes: I tend to agree with Philoten here that there should be some delay between a reset and a new wipe. Even 12 hours would more or less guarantee this. I just really do feel each person should have the opportunity to spawn, to allow there to be the potential of opposition. Eventually, this could be moot if we had more players (in a wider range of timezones), but right now, these feasibility of 'speedwipes' is primarily benefiting those in these less popular timezones. To note, I am not suggesting that a 'wipe while everyone sleeps' is any way inferior, just in the occurrences when the vast majority of players don't even have the opportunity to spawn.
Self-Axing with Polymuf: My thought here is the fact you can't was unintended... but if that assumption is false, I do believe it should be feasible. It isn't exactly a trivial task to gr a polymuf on an adjacent square as is...
Missles: I think missles would need to be nerfed from what I experience with 1.0. I would recommend limited range for example. Perhaps also have it be a soft cap - the further away, the less damaging, and perhaps less accuracy.
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Philoten
Ronin Warlock
I am un-biased in certain matters.
Posts: 34
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Post by Philoten on May 2, 2013 11:33:39 GMT -5
So.... karma. I don't really agree with the how it is done to consider one of (as I call it) Yakmin status. I believe you, succat, should choose 3 people you deem trustworthy this way we don't have abuse of the system.
Psy can make this argument sound better so I'll hand it over to him....
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Post by psykosis on May 2, 2013 11:50:11 GMT -5
Karma: Tired of players trolling, spawn-razing, wiping noobs, or other similar acts? Smite them! You can also praise other fellow gridders for their good deeds. Bonus: The 3 players with the most karma (must be over 1,000) will have earned the right to temporarily mute players with lower karma than themselves in Yak and in Whispers - What does 'spawn-razing', 'wiping noobs', and other similar acts have to do with preventing idiots from coming on and spamming the yak, etc?
- I feel this crosses 'external to game mechanics' (e.g. blocking spam) with in-game mechanics (e.g. 'praise/smite', inability to praise a ghost, etc.) which isn't a wonderful concept.
- I feel this essentially causes a popularity contest of 'who can bribe the most/threaten the most' and most people are not really thinking about the ramifications (again, perhaps due to the fact the description in the rules has conflicting 'causes' (e.g. nasty in-game acts) vs. effect (e.g. being able to stop spam).
- I feel this could ultimately be detrimental to having a strong community.
- All it would take is a troll and a couple of buddies to ramp up karma and effectively have this backfire against the entire community.
- It is open-ended enough in the description that it sounds like this could be used as a weapon to shush people.
- If a 'yakmin' is abusive of their power, this power allows them to mute anyone who would bring this to the attention of other players to remove this power from them.
- This creates another reason for people to have alts - to increase their karma.
The freedom of speech should not be jeopardized by in-game actionsA big question to Succat: What is the intent of the karma system? Is the intent for it to help handle the random spammer we get (e.g. the original yakmin concept), or is this more open-ended, popularity contest based weapon?[/size] UpdateDue to the lack of clarity around the intent of karma, we currently are striving to get everyone back down to '0', to prevent potential abuse of yak/whisper bans.
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Post by succat on May 2, 2013 21:39:06 GMT -5
I'm not sure how this idea of a yakmin got started, but there is no need for a yakmin. A yakmin can be achieved by writing code that checks to see if the person yakking is firing constant yak after yak, using deragatory language - whatever. So there is no need to appoint anyone to monitor the Yak when code can do the same thing. But, it will take a little work to figure out, which is why I haven't done it YET. Now, in the MEANTIME... The idea of the Karma feature was just a late-night whim/experiment. Super easy to add, basically just copied and pasted some similar code from another feature, and tweaked - and voila! Actually the idea is not unique, it's been around, and I remember when this very own website had karma attached to the members, and you could smite them or give them kudos. A little bit of history... at that time I was climbing the ranks in Warlocks and so there was some bad blood between myself and ExDeath (the champion at that time) - and so I got smited repeatedly and so did he. Eventually the moderator removed the Karma feature from this website (probabaly because we were slipping into negative karma and it was just turning into a smiting show - fun stuff actually). So, it was fun while it lasted to see how far in the positive or negative range you could go - and at the same time it could really kind of mess with you to see just how hated you were by everyone else as well who didn't like you making an appearance and calling out the champion So the same core concept of that is implemented on The Grid - with a twist. The twist is that the 3 top karma players with over 1,000 karma will be able to temporarily mute other players with lower karma than themselves. Key word: temporarily. It isn't defined, but in my mind it's something like they will be able to use mute like 5-10 times within a 24-hour period. And each 'muting' would last for 1 happy hour. So, in my mind, it's enough where a high-karma player could shut up a ranting griddlenoob if they wanted to or some other player that starts getting too chatty, but even more fun would be if they mute people at certain moments when a lot of strife is happening on The Grid, so now you're temporarily disabled from communicating with an ally or opponent at some key moment in time. I think of it as like in a war and you've just lost communication with the rest of your troops or allies... and again, we're talking 5-10 happy hours at the most here within a 24 hour period - not days at a time. You could say it's a popularity contest in a way. While some players could grow in, say, units, others could grow in karma. But, all they can really achieve is the ability to mute people temporarily, but again, if they just start muting everyone constantly and abusing their power, they're gonna get smited back down, and another person will take their place. If they mute people at the right times during battles they could cause some chaos and potentially change the outcome of a war. I think of these high-karma guys as like Popes. They're pretty weak - they're old and hobble around in their fancy robes, gaining praise from everyone. But, they can't take over a square - they just war with words, or by disallowing others to use them (words). Rough analogy, I know, but it's what came to me as I was implementing this feature. I'm not really worried about this feature being trolled. People could already be creating alts and using them to vote and and spawn wipe and whatever else to gain power on The Grid - I don't see them doing that anymore so for a mute ability, especially since it's going to take time to achieve and is it really worth the effort? If people go through all of that trouble, they could have just made more progress actually playing the game legally, but if they cheat, eventually they could be caught because of their suspicious activity if I notice it. Also, I believe that for all of the 'trolls' or so-called 'bad' apples on The Grid, I believe most of the community is legit and will outnumber these 'bad' folk. The good players will smite them down and control them just as they do now in other aspects of the game. And it's the respected and feared players who will most likely receive most of the high karma anyway because other players already recognize their power - and I'm already seeing this at the time of this writing.
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Philoten
Ronin Warlock
I am un-biased in certain matters.
Posts: 34
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Post by Philoten on May 2, 2013 22:47:24 GMT -5
I'm not sure how this idea of a yakmin got started, Hi...
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shogouki
Ronin Warlock
NOTHING'S UNPOSSIBLE!
Posts: 8
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Post by shogouki on May 18, 2013 0:24:28 GMT -5
How is square distance calculated? Because it appears to be based on the difference between the square numbers. That isn't good way to set up the distance cap. I can jump from 66 all the way to 55, a distance of 5 squares, but not to 48, which is only 3 squares away, because of how the grid is laid out.
EDIT: Apparently I missed the update that said this was how they worked. But why? It seems rather pointless to jump to the other side of the board, but be restricted to 2 squares vertically.
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Post by psykosis on May 18, 2013 12:59:00 GMT -5
I don't quite get the 'vertically challenged' wildcards either. It just seems like it arbitrarily convolutes things. Of course, I am not thrilled on the topic of switch or wildcards in general...
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Post by succat on May 18, 2013 14:59:59 GMT -5
Yeah, the 'distance' of Switch with vertical movement is a little wonky at the moment - I do plan to fix that soon so that both vertical and horizontal distance is the same. So these commands (Headbands and Switch) were forced on by me because I wanted to see them used since they've been adjusted. I think they've both been voted off for like a month or more maybe? I don't usually force votes on, but occasionally I will. If the dislike for these commands is still the same, they can be voted off again and I probably won't touch them again for a while afterwards. I don't like to tamper too much with the game just as people are getting used to things, but it's still evolving as a game, and occasionally I need to try things out. If I never forced my hand and tried out different commands, but just did what everyone wanted all the time - you'd have a completely different game. I do like listening to opinions though when I have the time, and I have been known to implement many ideas that are good and are in line of what I want the game to look like. I listen to everybody that comes to me with an idea, but ultimately I make the final call on what gets implemented. Another command... Karma - I am currently changing at the moment. May even be complete today. I'm getting rid of the whole 'muting' bonus with high karma and doing something entirely different that should be pretty fun. I listened to the people on the 'muting' thing, and I don't know if there was even one supporter of it, so it's gone. (See, I do listen) On another note... Grid 3.0 - haven't touched it in like what, 2 months maybe? Posted a few things on our developers board, but don't think I've seen anything from Psy either in quite a while so it's looking pretty dead. So... for me, there are 2 things going on. Work has been absolutely crazy for me so far this year, and then when I do have time to get away from it, I don't feel like working on Grid 3.0. I find that I'd rather make small changes to 2.0 and have also been drawing up a design for a new game and actually began coding some of it. So, that's where I'm at right now. I'm not saying Grid 3.0 is over and completely dead, but honestly, I'm not seeing a lot of life there either from myself or from Psy. This could turn around in the future, who knows... or it could just continue like it is. Also, for myself, I find that it's easier for me to work on projects without the influence or contributions from anyone else. Not saying that I don't appreciate those things, because I do, and it's good to get feedback and constructive criticism from time to time so that you can shape your product into something better (example of that is Psykosis noticing the redundant database queries all throughout the Grid code and mentioning that to me - I had completely overlooked it in my haste to just get things 'working')... but for me, unless I'm doing my own thing - productivity goes way down. I think the reason for that is because I tend to just get in there and start making something on my own, and I get on a roll, and I'll push out a game in a short period of time - like Grid 1.0 and Grid 2.0. Yes, they have their flaws, but they are playable (not so much Grid 1.0 anymore, but you get the idea). Now, when I'm having to split my ideas and time with other developers (and this is true for me in my vocation as well), I become less productive because now I can't get in there and do my thing because everything becomes a discussion. So it turns into talking... and when you're just talking... you're not working. It reminds me of the Ents from Lord of The Rings. They were very wise creatures, but they had a hard time getting around to doing anything because they had to discuss every detail. That's what I feel like sometimes when I read this forum... there are all of these ideas and talking about how The Grid should have this or have that or do such and such - and all of those opinions are appreciated, please don't get me wrong, I welcome them and love how people contribute like that - but also it becomes very difficult to wade through it all and make something happen because you don't want to offend someone if you don't use their idea or if you tweak something differently than how some players wanted it, etc, etc. Eventually, for me, bottom line, I just have to put everyone to the side and create something and then see what the repercussions of that are. Listen to the feedback after the crap hits the fan and adjust it at that point, but the point is, I'm going to make something happen first without asking for anyone's blessing usually or sitting around like the Ents and discussing everything for ages. That's just not my thing, I don't have patience for that So bare with me and my crazy ideas, and I encourage all of the 'idea' people on here to not just have an idea, but put it into action. Everyone has ideas; some good, some bad. But take those ideas and then turn it into something if you feel strongly about it. That's what I did with The Grid. I had a simple basic idea of a game like Risk, using squares instead of countries and I knew I wanted it to be multi-player. And I started chipping away at it. And I'm not even a very good programmer at all, I'm still very new to programming, and would be considered by some still at a junior level. The point is to start working on something if you have an idea. Don't let the idea die because you're unwilling to put in the work to achieve your idea. If you want to see The Grid differently and better than what you see here, that's fine and good - and I also want to see it better - but if it's not happening and you feel strongly about it, then make your own game, and perfect it just how you think it should be. If that doesn't suit you and you guys just want to contribute to The Grid and implement more functionality, you can do the same thing Psykosis did with the Raze command. I'll toss you a sample file and you can create your own functionality like raze or some other command - it isn't rocket science, guys. They should be teaching programming in schools (I don't know, maybe they do now? I dropped out of college ). It's pretty simple logic when you boil it down and will get you a lot further along than some other boring class in school that serves no purpose, but just adds useless facts into your memory banks. OK... sorry for the rant, but felt I needed to say what I've been thinking and hopefully also encourage those with a lot of ideas to do something -anything- about them! And also I wanted to clear the air with expectations for Grid 3.0 - no work has been done on it for some time... part of that is my own fault for bouncing back and forth with interest for it and then a sudden lack of interest for it... so it's currently still in limbo... now... let the stones fly...
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