morzas
Ronin Warlock
Posts: 30
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P/S
Oct 31, 2007 22:11:29 GMT -5
Post by morzas on Oct 31, 2007 22:11:29 GMT -5
I've been using this opening pretty much all the time. I haven't played a lot of games, so I can't see why it's lambasted in this article. Could someone clue me in? Also, if you've played me, you know that I open PD/SW, which isn't listed in that article. I've noticed that it tends to unfold this way when I'm up against a D/P player: PDFF SWPP I get hit by Amnesia on turn 3. On turn 4, I counter the charm or ogre, then they go invisible. I go invisible a turn after they do. The other way it usually plays out is this way: PDWP SWDx I Fear myself to counter Amnesia. The Ogre hits me for 2 damage, so I try to fire back with a Cause Heavy or a Clap of Lightning. I suspect that PD/SW is weak to Maladroit. I'd need to play against someone that opens Maladroit before I can really say.
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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P/S
Nov 1, 2007 9:34:21 GMT -5
Post by taliesin on Nov 1, 2007 9:34:21 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm afraid this is pretty weak.
PDFF SWPP
This is at best an inferior version of
PDFF DPPP
which can land a lightning bolt hit against DPP/PSD if the Amnesias cross, as is commonly the case; in practice however it loses enough initiative that the other player is adequately compensated.
However, this version does not give you control over your opponent's spellflow on the fourth turn. (Oh, and a good opponent would only go Invis if they had led in with PSD, incidentally, as the Delay Invis is the only Invis potent enough for going in a turn ahead to be beneficial.)
Now for refutations.
PSFW DPSFW Your opponent is better off not casting the Amnesia at all, but just going for summoning two ogres.
PDF SWP Line 1: You can only counter one and you have no charm.
PDW SWD Line 2: well, Fear on yourself is manifestly pretty horrid if they dummy the Amnesia, and after that they're free to head for Charm instead.
PDWP SWDW
PSFW DPSD 3 damage down, and totally on the defensive. Here, you're wrecked and it's hardly begun.
What if you cast the Fear at them? Better: PDWP SWDSF
PSFW DPSW Two down, but with a little initiative advantage if you self-Maladroit successfully against the Fear. This is your best case.
(WPFD is of course counterable, and WDDc is - as is almost always the case at any point where it won't reduce your opponent to two health or less - horrid: PDWPCWWW SWDDCWPP
PSFWPFDP DPSWDPPS health is equalised by the other player easily, leaving you disastrously on the defensive.)
Of course, if they did cast the Amnesia at you and you cast Fear at them, you're in huge trouble again. PDWW SWDD
PSFW DPPW and they're an ogre and two damage up already.
So, your best case - assuming luck - from this route against good play leaves you two health down with a reasonable initiative advantage. Okay, not great. If you don't get lucky with your guesses, you're being hammered in short order.
I don't think we even need to look at Maladroit or other D/P lines given its obvious shortcomings against DPS/PSF.
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P/S
Nov 3, 2007 10:11:12 GMT -5
Post by Citanest on Nov 3, 2007 10:11:12 GMT -5
I like SP, it allows for some interesting games. It doesn't beat DP but in my experience you can always make it come out at least evens.
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P/S
Nov 3, 2007 11:08:13 GMT -5
Post by Slartucker on Nov 3, 2007 11:08:13 GMT -5
I think "always" is quite a stretch. "Sometimes," certainly.
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P/S
Nov 3, 2007 14:27:10 GMT -5
Post by Rycchus on Nov 3, 2007 14:27:10 GMT -5
What about other S/P lines? How do they go?
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P/S
Nov 3, 2007 14:55:43 GMT -5
Post by awall on Nov 3, 2007 14:55:43 GMT -5
Isn't SW/PW the standard answer to DP/PS? I can't figure out how to make that work...
DPPS PSDP
SWWW PWPP
This isn't great, as it basically restarts the game PS/DP vs. WW/PP, which we all know leaves the second player down.
DPPW PSDW
SWDD (fear at opponent) PWPP
This gives your opponent delay invis that you can't do much about. Following him and going invis a turn later doesn't do much for you. I'd probably clap here, Dispel the potential Delay Effect, and hope the five damage made up for the huge amount of initiative I was about to lose.
DPPS PSDF
SWDW (fear at yourself) PWPP
This sort of works. You're still behind, but you're in a position where it's still possible to defend the Charm/Ogre and potential bolt that could come your way. Unfortunately, if your opponent dummies the Amnesia, you have no way to stop the second charm or the subsequent bolt.
DPSDFxx PSDFFDD
SWD PWP
If your opponent dummies the charm, it's not quite so bad for you, but you're still behind.
DPPS PSDP
SWDS PWPP
Again, not disastrous, but we're left with PS/DP against DS/PP, which pretty bad.
Dummying the counter and going for Haste has possibilities, although I think it still leaves you down.
Come to think of it, a lot of the problems with SW/PW are also present with SW/WW. I feel like I'm missing something fundamental here... what's going on?
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P/S
Nov 3, 2007 16:01:51 GMT -5
Post by ExDeath on Nov 3, 2007 16:01:51 GMT -5
Come to think of it, a lot of the problems with SW/PW are also present with SW/WW. I feel like I'm missing something fundamental here... what's going on? I think fundamentally PW is just bad unless you expect extreme passivity from the opponent's opening, which D/P isn't going to deliver. SW/PS I thought was a far more common opening.
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