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Post by vilhazarog on Dec 5, 2007 21:14:54 GMT -5
So I'm looking at my waving hands engine I've written and all the spells are there except for invisibility and blindness.
This is partially because I'm not even sure exactly how it works.
The original rules are vague. And Warlocks doesn't even document exactly how it works, and I don't see anything written down on Slart's site.
For example, in Warlocks, you can see the effects of some spells (classic example, Shield) when an invisible warlock casts them. Anyone got an exact list of spells that can be seen when cast as invis? I think I remember someone writing that this can be hidden by targeting nobody, can someone shed some light on that? Is this an important aspect of invis that should be implemented exactly the same? What if you were just told exactly what spells an invisible wizard casts, instead of given hints? What if you were given no hints at all?
Does blindness work the same? Or do you get no info at all? What about in a melee? If blind in a melee, can you log out, log in as someone else, spectate the match and see everyone's gestures? Or do spectators go blind if anyone in the melee is blind?
Any other info I didn't think to ask that I should have?
-Vil
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Post by Slartucker on Dec 5, 2007 22:12:52 GMT -5
The list is on the Refuge.
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Post by Rycchus on Dec 6, 2007 1:10:32 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure spectators go blind if anyone in the melee is blind, much like blindness in a duel is hidden from anyone watching as well.
Incidentally, does anyone know what happens when the match finishes? I played a perma-blind match with Masquerade not so long ago and when the match finished he could see all my gestures for the whole match, but his were still questionmarked to me.
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Post by vilhazarog on Dec 6, 2007 15:01:37 GMT -5
Thanks Rycchus... that's another thing I hadn't known... gestures that were made while the opponent was blind are revealed at the end of the match?
So I read that FM article on Invis and I assume Warlocks works the same, so that confirms that you can hide spell effects by targeting nobody... so I'm going to assume that there is no reason to even implement the 'hints' and the only clues you'd get is if you're hit by a spell from the invisible person or they enchant themselves, thus revealing the enchantment next to their health.
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Post by xade on Dec 6, 2007 17:15:58 GMT -5
Just one thing, Shield and magic missile *need* to give hints, even when cast at nobody...
Also, if you counter yourself, you should get a hint telling you if you actually countered a spell...
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Post by vilhazarog on Dec 6, 2007 17:49:57 GMT -5
I finally found the article Slartucker was talking about... it's all explained in Undocumented Spell Interactions... I was looking for it in the two articles on Invisibility.
Since it seems some thought went into these "discernable effect" messages for counter and nobody I assume it was introduced for game balance reasons and should be part of the implementation of invis and blindness.
Thanks xade
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Post by xade on Dec 6, 2007 18:41:19 GMT -5
no, no, no, thank you...
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Post by awall on Dec 8, 2007 16:28:10 GMT -5
Actually, I'd say that every spell should give hints when it's cast. The less information is revealed, the more it comes down to pure guessing. However, at a bare minimum, the following spells NEED to give themselves away when cast, even if targeted at nobody:
Shield (duh) Magic Missile Fear Summon Goblin
Other mindspells should give themselves away as well, although they need not be distinguishable from each other (i.e. turn 1 missile, turn 3 mindspell->nobody could be either Amnesia or Maladroitness, or perhaps Fear or Para from the other hand). I'd like to say that Antispell->nobody should also produce a message, although I could be argued out of it.
I would like to be able to see what the hidden gestures were after the game. That'd be useful for learning.
Also, I wouldn't mind the ability to enter (in your own display) what you think the opponent's moves were. For example, if I paralyze your right hand going into invis and the next turn I see shield/missile, I know your gestures were D/P so it'd be nice if I could tell the game to display them as that rather than as ?/?.
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Post by Slartucker on Dec 8, 2007 18:37:49 GMT -5
I would suggest that perhaps all spells should give away that a spell was cast -- sensing the magical energy or somesuch -- but only spells with visible effects would tell you more than that. Casting a lightning bolt and aiming it away from everyone is obviously going to be visible. Same thing for a missile. Not so for a shield, at least in MY imagination. However, just knowing how many spells he casts each turn provides essentially the same information, since the number of castable spells with no visible effects when targetting nobody are slim: on turn 1 of invis, only shield; on turn 2, just shield and fear.
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Post by emrys on Dec 17, 2007 0:29:07 GMT -5
I don't know, but I always got the impression that the actual Warlocks implementation was that spells had their effects all the time and it was merely gestures that were hidden. I haven't researched it, certainly not in a long time, so I could be wrong, but that was the impression I got. (... and yes, spectators see the least that anybody can see.)
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Post by spez on Dec 17, 2007 15:04:51 GMT -5
By the way, spectators MUST see the least. If not, you could just log off, spectate your own game.. and voila!
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laxen
Ronin Warlock
Posts: 77
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Post by laxen on Dec 18, 2007 9:28:00 GMT -5
what happens if you go invis AND get blinded at the same time? i'm guessing that neither can see the other's gestures and that both can only use spells that target themselves, or that they cancel... but i'm not that sure!
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Post by spez on Dec 18, 2007 16:59:01 GMT -5
Also, there's the thing with "Target monster summoned by LH:PLAYER". The game seems to show you the option to control possible monster even if you don't see the player's hand (blind/invis).
IE: if the player has SF on either hand, or CWSS or CSWW, even if you don't see his hands, you DO see the "Target LH:Player" and "Direct monster summoned by LH:PLAYER to attack".
Am I mistaken here?
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Post by xade on Dec 18, 2007 20:37:56 GMT -5
Spez, partly... you *do* see that... but you see it if it is posible... Ie,
PPws??
In this case, you will be give the option because it is distinctly possible for a monster to come out on the next turn...
Or
DWFFd???W
Again, you'll be given the option, cause it is posible... not neccessarily guarenteed to happen, but is definitely possible.
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Post by awall on Dec 18, 2007 21:42:24 GMT -5
Actually, you see the option even if it's clearly not possible. Even if, for example, you see a missile and a shield on the first turn of invis, the game will still let you target a potential goblin on the second turn.
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