morzas
Ronin Warlock
Posts: 30
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Post by morzas on Sept 13, 2007 13:36:59 GMT -5
Is there ever a reason not to do -? Maybe a variant where - isn't allowed would be interesting. The way Charm Person is right now, it's basically half of an Anti-Spell.
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Post by Rycchus on Sept 13, 2007 13:46:14 GMT -5
Reasons not to do -:
1. They're the sort of Warlock that's stupid enough to do a P whilst charmed and you hope to charm surrender them. 2. They're aiming two disruptions at you on the basis that one of them will get through. You charm them both through so they'll cancel. 3. They're your teammate in a team melee. 4. They're casting a spell which needs a target other than default (or you know they put targets in) and you want to get them to shield what they're stabbing, stab what they're countering, etc. 5. You're feeling friendly. 6. You want to point and laugh at them (and flailing half claps are so much more funny than dead hands) 7. I'm sure there are more...
But, yes, you're right, most of the time "-" is the way forward.
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Post by vermont on Sept 13, 2007 13:58:15 GMT -5
A key difference is that with an anti-spell the -s happen THAT turn, while with a charm, it happens the following turn. There are some situations where they are cast at the same time that have some interesting results.
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Derfel
Ronin Warlock
Did I Do That?
Troublemaker
Posts: 283
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Post by Derfel on Sept 13, 2007 15:20:29 GMT -5
I love the half-clap. So Zen.
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Post by ExDeath on Sept 13, 2007 16:17:34 GMT -5
Reasons not to do -: 1. They're the sort of Warlock that's stupid enough to do a P whilst charmed and you hope to charm surrender them. 6. You want to point and laugh at them (and flailing half claps are so much more funny than dead hands) 1. I wouldn't say putting P on one hand while charmed is _stupid_. I'm sure I've lost a game or two that way, but won more games by following through with the P. It's kind of a risk/reward thing. 6. Yes, I do this sometimes, but only in the hopes that someday I'll charm them to - and they'll do C on the other hand expecting me to charm to C. This, however, has never happened...and likely never will. But man, would that be sweet.
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Post by Rycchus on Sept 13, 2007 17:39:28 GMT -5
Yeah, I was exaggerating for effect. I like my opponents flailing
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morzas
Ronin Warlock
Posts: 30
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Post by morzas on Sept 13, 2007 18:28:21 GMT -5
Oh, yeah, forgot about half-clap. A variant where - or half-clap isn't allowed would be nifty.
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Post by xade on Sept 13, 2007 19:21:46 GMT -5
I love the half-clap. So Zen. and what is the sound that it makes?
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Post by Rycchus on Sept 13, 2007 19:35:33 GMT -5
A kind of whooshing noise?
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Post by Dubber on Sept 13, 2007 21:05:56 GMT -5
I shut a stuffy boring prof up in intro to philosophy by making *very* audible clapping noises with one hand (no other body parts involved, perverts) from the back row. All this silly fru-fru "great questions" crap have very direct physically testable answers.
The sound of one hand clapping is... clapping -- try it. Just slap your fingertips down into your palm while keeping your fingers straight... Voila! Clapping.
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Post by Slartucker on Sept 13, 2007 22:40:00 GMT -5
I charm to > almost as frequently as to -, and frankly I'm surprised I'm the only one. There are lots of situations where there is no possible drawback to >, and a possible (although unlikely) benefit. If you gesture P or have Protection active, have no monsters, and there is no chance of FFF or DPP, there's no reason not to. Sure, there's rarely a reason for your opponent to target themselves, but I've gotten free damage from this off players as good as Surial.
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Post by awall on Sept 14, 2007 1:06:42 GMT -5
I've seen you do that, and I've been meaning to get into the habit myself. It's unlikely to ever work, unless the other guy really needs a PDWP, but you're right that there's no harm in trying.
Regarding charming to P... I generally ignore that possibility in my calculations. A failed charm-to-P ploy makes your Charm absolutely worthless and stands to rob you of whatever initiative you would have gotten, whereas a standard PSDFFD forces them on the defensive in a big way and leaves them in trouble if you have anything coming on the other hand. If I'm behind, I might Charm to P if it's my only hope of winning, but doing it and guessing wrong is likely to cost me the game.
Generally, I assume my opponent will also play like I do so I don't worry too much about inputting P when charmed, although I almost always come out of being charmed with W anyway for obvious reasons.
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Sept 14, 2007 5:40:45 GMT -5
I not infrequently charm to P to block SPFP or DPP on the other hand. P often takes a few further gestures to become useful, particularly off WP or FP, and if my initiative is sufficient I can still come out comfortably ahead, which is often not the case if I let them complete the SPFP or DPP.
I also very occasionally charm to P when I'm hammering my opponent with monsters and they may risk a shield, but usually the Lightning Bolt threat is sufficient reason for them not to enter a P.
Players who learn soon get wary of entering a P on the charmed turn against you after a surrender or two; players who don't can be caught again and again.
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Post by calicojack on Sept 14, 2007 8:05:27 GMT -5
Sometimes your opponent needs a P on one hand. (E.g. they got SPF and at that point they get charmed). This is absolutely great as you get to disrupt BOTH hands. However, sometimes guts shine through, as it's awfully seductive to try it. I have also submitted P/P in response to being charmed from time to time.
Regarding slartuckers stabbings - that was a loooooooong time ago in a very specific situation (I needed to target self for something important - but how often does that happen?). That was the only time I've ever seen that work. I agree that it's technically always better in many situations, but it's hardly worth the brainspace.
There's a famous charm person derivate which precludes - and C, but does give you control over the other two boxes as well - for that hand you can both pick spell and pick target. If you charm someone at the DP mark, you can finish the amnesia AND make them cast it on themselves.
The problem is that with the current state of ravenblack, you can't actually play this variant unless you fully trust your opponent.... and your opponent will usually know what's happening (as you must tell him the target in a private message), so it's incomplete, and a giant pain. Shame. It sounds like a fun change.
Though, I find the need to change PSDF from disallowing C/-/> ploys far less important than making confusion playable again and making it not do at least - and > (also not making it C would make confusion too underpowered, but as is, there's a 1 in 8 chance of confusion doing nothing, and a 3 in 8 of confusion being almost the same as a charm).
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Post by Rycchus on Sept 14, 2007 8:11:44 GMT -5
I shut a stuffy boring prof up in intro to philosophy by making *very* audible clapping noises with one hand (no other body parts involved, perverts) from the back row. All this silly fru-fru "great questions" crap have very direct physically testable answers. The sound of one hand clapping is... clapping -- try it. Just slap your fingertips down into your palm while keeping your fingers straight... Voila! Clapping. But in Warlocks, it's not one hand clapping. It's one hand trying to clap. It means your hand is desperately looking for another friendly hand to make a clapping noise with, and failing coz the other hand is doing something much better. A half-clap makes no noise.
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