scwizard
Ronin Warlock
Lone Wol
Posts: 55
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Post by scwizard on Apr 16, 2010 17:15:24 GMT -5
You don't get an ogre if they fire their banked charm. These seem pretty close to even. Perhaps favoring SP a bit? I can't really tell. However they can also go for an ogre during time stop. I look forward to learning about this
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scwizard
Ronin Warlock
Lone Wol
Posts: 55
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Post by scwizard on Apr 16, 2010 18:00:14 GMT -5
Here's a list of possibilities. I'll get to analyzing them sometime later. SWDDWSSSP PWPPWSDSW Delay(3) & DPPWSPPFD PSDWSSSPS TimeOut(1)
SWDDWSSSP PWPPWSDSW Delay(3) & DPPWSPPFD PSDWSSSPS Banked:Time Stop
SWDDWSSSP PWPPWSDSF Delay(3) & DPPWSPPFD PSDWSSSPS TimeOut(1)
SWDDWSSSP PWPPWSDSF Delay(3) & DPPWSPPFD PSDWSSSPS Banked:Time Stop
EDIT: nm
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scwizard
Ronin Warlock
Lone Wol
Posts: 55
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Post by scwizard on Apr 16, 2010 18:55:28 GMT -5
Here's another consideration: DPPWSFPSF PSDWSPWPW & DPPWSFPSF PSDWSPSPF & DPPWSWFPS PSDWSPPFD They all look the same! The situation as you can see is quite complicated.
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Post by salvor on Apr 17, 2010 12:37:05 GMT -5
After some analysing activity I've realised that it is better to play para-delay SWDDWSSSP PWPPWSFFF
if you see that your opponent playing SP/SS, it gives you plenty of options which guaranties you to to have a better position.
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scwizard
Ronin Warlock
Lone Wol
Posts: 55
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Post by scwizard on Apr 17, 2010 14:16:31 GMT -5
What about the following: DPPWSDPDWP PSDWSSSPSD & SWDDWSSSPF PWPPWSFFFF If SP banks para, then DP can bank charm person. If SP doesn't bank para, then DP banks a charmed monster targeted at his opponent. This seems to be even, unless SP has some sort of flow advantage here.
There's also possibilities like this: DPPWSCPSFW PSDWSCDPWP
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Post by salvor on Apr 17, 2010 15:25:39 GMT -5
First one:Why should SP bank the para if he can bank antispell?So SP can bank antispell(if remouve isn't targeted at SP) or if remouve remouves delay SP gains some initiative via para+anti.
Second one: DPPWSCPS PSDWSCDP
SWDDWSSS PWPPWSDS
Particularly nice weave,actually, I think that it is the best possible ways for D/P-player in this oppening. On 8th turn S/P-player see that D/P-player is making this wave(all alternative are too esoteric,like timestop fireball one turn behind). The knowledge about DP's spellflow is perfect.
Now as S/P-player knows that delay is unlikely to be succesful he can abort it, but there are some good variants which allows delay to being casted:
SWDDWSSSPPC PWPPWSDSWDC
DPPWSCPSFW(W/P PSDWSCDPWP(P/W)
And ogre is dispelled with even position
SWDDWSSSPPS PWPPWSDSWDPS
DPPWSCPSFW PSDWSCDPWP And S/P has a 50/50 chance of taking an ogre,or SP can just kill it using missiles
SWDDWSSSPPS PWPPWSDSFWP
DPPWSCPSFW PSDWSCDPWP
Same as previous one,but goblin can earn some hp or even kill the ogre.
Another obvious answer is to play
SWDDWSSSC PWPPWSDSC
dispelling the ogre, this will net you some initiative Or double-goblin madness
SWDDWSSSFW PWPPWSDSFW
You may try double-anti weave SWDDWSSSPFP PWPPWSDSSP(F/S) It can be countered,but it throws you into multiplicate 50/50s with an ability of charming the ogre Another possible answers are: SWDDWSSSPS PWPPWSDSWWP.
As for me I prefer SPPc line, SC/SC line and lines which leads into double-charm.
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scwizard
Ronin Warlock
Lone Wol
Posts: 55
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Post by scwizard on Apr 17, 2010 15:32:14 GMT -5
He can't bank anti because remove enchantment stops that. Also antispell is countered. Come to think of it though, it's not worth considering, because you have: DPPWSDPDWPPWW PSDWSSSPSDDDD & SWDDWSSSPFPSD PWPPWSFFFFFFF And now DP needs to guess between charm and perm, so DP is at a disadvantage.
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Post by salvor on Apr 17, 2010 15:45:11 GMT -5
DPPWSDPDWPPWW PSDWSSSPSDDDD
It is actually a DPPWSDPDWPPW PSDWSSSPSDDX as charm monster cancell para.But yes, there is a 50/50 between permapara and bolt via PSDF
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scwizard
Ronin Warlock
Lone Wol
Posts: 55
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Post by scwizard on Apr 17, 2010 15:53:28 GMT -5
In the safe case, the charm monster is targeted at SP (and therefore useless) and banked, because if you don't do that, then SP has the possibility of banking para. As you said though, it doesn't matter >_>
Here's another possibility that I'm having a hard time analyzing. DPPWSCDPWP PSDWSCSWWS Keep in mind that from behind invisibility, this looks identical to a double anti weave (until dispel hits).
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Post by salvor on Apr 17, 2010 16:13:02 GMT -5
Why is it(charm monster) targetted at SP???I don't see a logic in such targetting, actually.
No, it doesn't, double anti is "shields on 1st and 2nd turns of invi" ice elemental is "shield on third turn of invi and no delay on 3rd turn".
Here elemental isn't as playable as in Toyotami's wave (SWDDCDPW/PSDDCSWWS) as S/P-player has as much hitpoints as D/P-player.
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scwizard
Ronin Warlock
Lone Wol
Posts: 55
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Post by scwizard on Apr 17, 2010 16:23:43 GMT -5
Whoops, you're right they look different.
Because on turn 11, you select "F" when it asks you the gesture you want to make with your right hand, you select "charm person" when it asks you the gesture you want to make with your right hand, you select "SP" for the target of that spell and you select that you would like to bank this spell.
However instead of "F" your right hand makes a "D" because it's paraed, so due to defaults you end up banking a charm monster targeted at your opponent.
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Post by salvor on Apr 17, 2010 16:31:28 GMT -5
You can do the same but don't specigy target. Default target for charm person is opponent and default target for charm monster is yourself. If you don't specify target while banking it changes to default one.
And even if you targettet your opponent, you throw counter on the same turn, hence you won't be paralysed.
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scwizard
Ronin Warlock
Lone Wol
Posts: 55
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Post by scwizard on Apr 17, 2010 16:37:38 GMT -5
SWDDWSSSPPC PWPPWSDSWDC & DPPWSCPSFWW PSDWSCDPWPP Ogre controlled by DP attacking SP. You call this an even position?
SWDDWSSSPPS PWPPWSDSWDP & DPPWSCPSFWP PSDWSCDPWPW I prefer to see it as SP has a 100% chance of taking the ogre, and DP has a 100% chance of hasting himself.
Ahh, the situation is pretty close to even then.
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Post by salvor on Apr 17, 2010 16:46:08 GMT -5
ogre is dispelled. Some advantage to D/P, but S/P-player lost a dec.point on t10.
Hasting and being feared and amnesiad consequently?Even the hasted paraFoD isn't too dangerous here, as D/Ps flow will be disrupted (if not by fear than by charm)
No it isn't, D/P-player has only one counter on turn of permanency.
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scwizard
Ronin Warlock
Lone Wol
Posts: 55
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Post by scwizard on Apr 17, 2010 16:48:10 GMT -5
In analyzing the case with the ogre, somewhere you reverted from FFF to DSF? Which one are you going with?
Nope, on the turn on permanence, he can cast banked charm monster on himself, and counterspell on his opponent.
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