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Post by toyotami on Jan 28, 2008 11:35:44 GMT -5
I know it has been done to death. The best opening is D/P. But i have to tell you...from a versatile, defeat the general pop goes, S/P rocks the casbah.
S/P has versatility. Against anything expect D/P it cleans up. I open S/P almost every game these days and i love it. When people open D/P against me its a pain, i have to go defensive but it isn't game breaking (unless i play exdeath...?). S/P destroys S/W. The double threat of SWD or SFW with the gauraunteed second punch of PSFW or PSDF and you can even be cheeky and sneak a PWPWW in there...worse comes to worse you are on the SW defensive. I love it...lull people into a sense of security and pick them to pieces.
I've been hovering on 1900 for ages now...this isn't a chiller diller giant killer opening...but for everyone that isnt slucker, spacca and exdeath...have some fun with S/P it rocks.
And those aforementioned elite (and technically love Awall) ....point out to me and all the students of the game where S/P falls down.
PS. Sorry if this has been discussed in another thread (i'm sure it has)
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Post by toyotami on Jan 28, 2008 11:40:01 GMT -5
techinally love awall. That's a weird thing to write. I can't even edit that post because i have no idea what i was supposed to write there. I think it meant...teachincally skilled Awall. Awall i don't love you, you kick my arse every time we duel. I hate you (competively speaking). One too many Harajuku ビール
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Post by Slartucker on Jan 28, 2008 12:49:36 GMT -5
"technically now awall"? L and N are both weak alveolar consonants, and W and V are orthographically related, so that seems a reasonable drunken error.
S/P is quite good against S/W, and quite bad against D/P. That's why, during the years when it was incorrectly assumed that S/W beats D/P, you had sort of a rock-scissors-paper thing going: D/P beats S/P beats S/W beats D/P.
Right now, though, D/P is so dominant that playing S/P has a large chance of risk and a very small chance of payoff, and the payoff is no greater than the risk. It really is that simple.
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Post by xade on Jan 28, 2008 21:50:14 GMT -5
techinally love awall. That's a weird thing to write. I can't even edit that post because i have no idea what i was supposed to write there. I think it meant...teachincally skilled Awall. Awall i don't love you, you kick my arse every time we duel. I hate you (competively speaking). One too many Harajuku ビール hey man... you know what?... *hic* huh? *hic* I love you maaan. no, really, I *loooove* you man. seriouly, see this guy? This is the guy. I love you man...
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Post by awall on Jan 28, 2008 22:09:26 GMT -5
I think I'm going to refrain from commenting on any alcohol-induced proclamations of affection.
I will say that I much prefer opening S/W to S/P. S/P may be better, but I feel that much more often it turns into a guessing game around turn four where the S/P player has the potential to come out behind if his opponent does something crafty (of course, the S/P player also has a pretty good chance to come out very far ahead in this case...)
I've found that SW/WF serves me quite well against DS/PS. It has the potential to leave me behind if I play predictably, but I can generally guarantee that nothing terrible happens while still leaving myself in a position to take advantage of my opponents' mistakes. I'm still working a line for SW/WF vs. DP/PS... I've tried Taliesin's SWP/WFF, but for some reason I've had trouble using it effectively. I really don't like relying on para for defense, it never seems to work.
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Derfel
Ronin Warlock
Did I Do That?
Troublemaker
Posts: 283
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Post by Derfel on Jan 28, 2008 22:19:27 GMT -5
My best opening lately has been P/P. Lose less ELO that way, on average...
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Post by Slartucker on Jan 28, 2008 22:23:12 GMT -5
Actually, you don't ever lose any Elo from opening P/P.
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Jan 29, 2008 8:25:31 GMT -5
I've tried Taliesin's SWP/WFF, but for some reason I've had trouble using it effectively. I really don't like relying on para for defense, it never seems to work. Taliesin's? Care to link me to where I recommended that? I play SFF/WWP, as WF/SW is actually very weak against DS/PS. An aside: consider
SWWSx WFPSx
PSDFW DSPFP
(entering the well-known Blind/Perm weave)
and
SWD WFP
PSFW DSFW
- all in all, the worst case scenarios on SW/WF are nasty.There's a small important difference in the existence of the Protection, as it allows you not to take damage here: DPSFW PSDFx
SFFFF WWPSAssuming that they don't dummy, of course, you get DPPSx PSDFx
SFFFF WWPPSor, against a smarter opponent: DPPSD PSDPP
SFFFF WWPPSand an acceptable position. The Protection matters, though - against DS/PS, it's an essential survival-against-summoning tool, and while against DP/PS it'll only be likely to save you from a missile, even one health is a saving not to be sniffed at.
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Post by Slartucker on Jan 29, 2008 10:17:31 GMT -5
You didn't recommend it. You did however do that particular string out, which is why you got a name drop for it in the article.
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Jan 29, 2008 11:25:40 GMT -5
Ah, I hadn't read that article - went over the Refuge just now and found it. My fault for not keeping up to date.
I'm disappointed it doesn't mention SF/WW though, given it was a much more analysed (and workable-looking) line than was WF/SW in our discussions.
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Post by Slartucker on Jan 29, 2008 11:32:52 GMT -5
As I recall, that was one of the few analyses where we've completely disagreed. SF/WW has its own problems, which you saw as smaller and I as larger. But if you want to write a section of SF/WW vs DSF/FOD I'd be happy to append it. Incidentally, the "update" is from 6 months ago
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Jan 29, 2008 12:28:26 GMT -5
Sure, SF/WW has its own problems - but given that WF/SW can go rapidly either into the Blind/Perm weave, which has a very high probability of game over, or into facing three points of monsters, and that with correct play from WF/SW, whereas SF/WW simply does not have a comparably bad worst case in any line I recall, it would seem to me that not including it is borderline ridiculous.
Brief notes for now: main lines of SF/WW:
- DP/PS
DPP PSD
SFFF WWPP
(discussed above)
- DSP/PSD
DSPFPS PSDFWP
SFFFF WWPFD - swapping a WPFD for an SPFP; possibility of countering to aim FFF at P1 means P1 should self-charm as only a little is gained from swapping charm/para over cancellation (choice of taking the WPFD, or para into a null gesture affecting on Antispell turn). Kills Blind/Perm dead, also the DFFDD/SPFP variant, though Antispell is always a danger in the hands of a skilled player.
- DSF/PSF
DSFW PSFW
SFFS WWPS - thanks to Protection, this is okayish, with plenty of play for both sides. Protecting two monsters is difficult, and there's a Fireball threat on top of that. Can also play SFFF/WWPF - this leaves you with a para chain but a goblin down after killing the ogre, but on the bright side is stronger against DSFF/PSFW.
- DSFF/PSDF
DSFF PSDF
SFFF WWPF - lots of lines, depending on cross-overs, P1 aiming for Disease or Lightning. This is quite dangerous for P2 as traps abound. Crossover on turn 4 - probably advisable for P2 to go for W against DFF to reach a position similar to the charm crossover with DFF against DFW. Crossover on turn 5, as Disease poses a smaller threat against more complete spellflow, favours P2 who has by then landed WPFD. No crossover slightly favours P1 who will progress to Lightning and be at 2 more health, though P2 may glean slight initiative on the non-para hand.
- DSFW/PSDF
DSFW PSDF
SFFF WWPF - P1 relatively defensive with a goblin, P2 has either a WPFD or para chain to work with. Analysed in more depth before, can't recall results, but looks like opportunities exist for both.
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taliesin
Ronin Warlock
Grand Master
Posts: 156
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Post by taliesin on Jan 29, 2008 12:44:15 GMT -5
Oh, yes, and against DSF/PWP, the line is once again SFF/WWP. P1 must play DSFW or suffer para on DSFF (PWPF is likewise off limits), but with Protection P2 is relatively unfazed by this. P2 can use the WPFD on the goblin or take the three health and trust to getting rid of the goblin before it becomes too costly.
SF/WW thus has many interesting and playable lines, but even so I think DS/PS yields a slight advantage and so D/P is sadly the stronger opening.
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Post by awall on Jan 30, 2008 23:10:13 GMT -5
Hah, I'd totally missed the perm/blind threat on DS/PS vs. SW/WF. I guess I'm just lucky that none of my opponents saw it either. Shucks, looks like I'll have to start experimenting with SF/WW.
With D/P now proven better than S/W, what is S/W actually good against these days? At first glance, it seems like it might be good against D/W, but I haven't taken the time to sit down and work it out yet.
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Post by Slartucker on Jan 30, 2008 23:45:35 GMT -5
SF/Wx works very well against D/W.
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